From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55A423CB37 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2024 01:37:57 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1719293863; x=1719898663; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=hXS5pjbchJ4uorlAua74yO1RM27zU7RVHFKANP21wtY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=sfBTdVerw5lsgLaOZnUcq2wM+u1IYylqG6eLISQ2vwqQ+DUxXcV24LCKFTNXhvod loxjqs7RoSuI7/6sc05kM2dkLM0O0SQzu0dB/teg+4nBMswhFhO5Dk7pOBGqIhOs+ +5RPBo7vVjs0tzKKUEZqaauzxeupL+lvanRuJt28D29iXihGZb101F7Tig6Dv/8qr rkO1Oug1JpL6xxq5uUqjLOd7uBAwHOXSGN6MhaRleCmC6qOy9pZP5obrsZ2ChrkN0 4TkMdW9XYs9FJDuGgm/WABH9Y5nAEafIUrss7f1PVlmyvIdtSSCtWACSsk+QNVVNY J3Q9qb2FJ6GX1cU6SA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([77.6.162.158]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MjjCF-1sk54m2MQN-00i13n; Tue, 25 Jun 2024 07:37:43 +0200 Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 07:37:40 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: David Lang , David Lang via Starlink , Ulrich Speidel CC: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <1p491rss-599n-n211-op44-1npn41p68005@ynat.uz> References: <29b64dbf-34c4-4616-9724-9c79bdcc1bb4@auckland.ac.nz> <1p491rss-599n-n211-op44-1npn41p68005@ynat.uz> Message-ID: <974AF92C-907B-43A3-AC41-449FBAA5EFAE@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----9PJR56BFC5JRRIIGWJ38I079HHTLDS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:wBFDzLUOuWOEROQGmkrsLytUZtSa1yTHLVNYNG+nw+t8EKki3If cv0S4uhBfw1+4Gtvz9qGEYcog6M3KdbZIKyhU2bF7b+EVnKnbs4bcNNJ06Bb3FFmIF2+xBB H5YgeJF4XS13qzojUbeuXhcOvMiXzXp4wf7s+8RIDoeD5lKLeXi8ANeX6eh08vSpZxH7keX ifa5EB8e0nYKgSOCw6chw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:uGry3cKvHsw=;NcKYJbu4qakWaQJRrLkQWJOb7XJ mxzga+JRF6XleRsYaqP+Rf+7XDcQpl8MrHUxL7fEAmvGWB/XfmHqceY5a0/GkOfrrh9ZzqIVp 5H2stQG0hO7amGZ/ESwnZNV+Pz8D9aawPjUPlgqxGkfXTY1accTSZHlxII+OPN9eyB0ShTJHS 1mICmSmlv4nrJwvXzec4V8Zr2e5z8GLxbsBeo9IuCAdoiODOy6+cpJiFmGdacBhc5ayj+gOXO bBC59g/k6qYkkI+QwX/7YkSdIhGMQQPQmLsyootJkS7Fjw7dODBYA0TmUJ+ZEj9T6AyKYSM+v t/6cqI7ODf/Qc4KjZDEwR4o62V6E0w7xDzlyVN0f/AfdxDA5jPwWazZU2fpfU8ciyXVucn4WK gAdggcguf07bDKlhtZwgN11/Ut1uVUxNqO0q1V29KD/mgtZnz/Y23QNx8zxmDVOhyumU7J8pA KQYcW3MlnBtarEEfzRJa/4hKNqadqvH1w3mkrx7Vazb65AP/FmXY4aLy4CPtpCIro7fUnhm1K 5GZOiVVfuQRLfUGwcyFwDhWDKS1XYKim9X/SlUT+Z6jCpBYoHmY8oJTmwfumZJzBSHfQbD47T NhZ5nwatmHdfnBHW3LKry8ySYi0q5h+hHGt2FRUXQfdorSScbb7WyycraIZNQ7Ods97rjpv6G kN2PQ+cHxBmKd+ciNigEnhAOTdJbl8AE+4S82FHGD+W+NPUKfG6FSrz7d5gpQChMr14GJx/JY YEyezbtknUjWUx3k4Gs0M4JNeplbqcyjLjEjKyb1/H33U2WIPgLp3oi5vQx7337qzVUgKTvXv ZjqrtYw24/ZM0b7AgEP8NKhG3wKQHNDJPnqytQzpvPfSs= Subject: Re: [Starlink] Jamaican Starlink Outages and a hint of shared infrastructure X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 05:37:57 -0000 ------9PJR56BFC5JRRIIGWJ38I079HHTLDS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My understanding is routing mostly follows the path of least cost=2E=2E=2E = and is more complex then BGP makes it look, if two ASs have multiple handov= er points one still needs to pick one for each flow=2E=2E=2E and even for a= simple route between two AS the forward and reverse path might use differe= nt hand-over points=2E=2E=2E think hot-potato routing=2E On 25 June 2024 05:42:47 CEST, David Lang via Starlink wrote: >Ulrich Speidel wrote: > >> This can also lead to weird effects globally=2E For example, much of th= e traffic between Japan and New Zealand *could* in principle trundle down t= o Guam and from there to Sydney and then to Auckland=2E Which would be kind= of shortest path=2E And occasionally it does=2E But just as often, you see= it crossing the Pacific to the US West Coast (or from Guam to Hawaii) and = from there back to New Zealand=2E Why? Good question=2E Was it because US b= ackhaul carriers were cheaper for a while with the US dollar being soft and= the Australian / NZ currencies surging in comparison? Were there governmen= t incentives for carriers to let traffic run through US territory for intel= ligence access (if so, the NSA would have to fear > >It's important to realize that BGP doesn't know how long any link is=2E i= t defines 'closest' by the number of hops=2E > >so Japan -> LA -> Auckland is 'shorter' than Japan -> Guam -> Sydnes -> A= uckland even though it's much longer, probably through more congested links= , and higher latency=2E > >David Lang >_______________________________________________ >Starlink mailing list >Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------9PJR56BFC5JRRIIGWJ38I079HHTLDS Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My understanding is routing most= ly follows the path of least cost=2E=2E=2E and is more complex then BGP mak= es it look, if two ASs have multiple handover points one still needs to pic= k one for each flow=2E=2E=2E and even for a simple route between two AS the= forward and reverse path might use different hand-over points=2E=2E=2E thi= nk hot-potato routing=2E


On 25 June 2024 05:42:47 CEST, David Lang via Starlink <star= link@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
Ulrich Speidel wrote:

This ca=
n also lead to weird effects globally=2E For example, much of the traffic b=
etween Japan and New Zealand *could* in principle trundle down to Guam and =
from there to Sydney and then to Auckland=2E Which would be kind of shortes=
t path=2E And occasionally it does=2E But just as often, you see it crossin=
g the Pacific to the US West Coast (or from Guam to Hawaii) and from there =
back to New Zealand=2E Why? Good question=2E Was it because US backhaul car=
riers were cheaper for a while with the US dollar being soft and the Austra=
lian / NZ currencies surging in comparison? Were there government incentive=
s for carriers to let traffic run through US territory for intelligence acc=
ess (if so, the NSA would have to fear

It's important to realize that BGP doesn't know how long any link i=
s=2E it defines 'closest' by the number of hops=2E

so Japan -> LA=
 -> Auckland is 'shorter' than Japan -> Guam -> Sydnes -> Auckl=
and even though it's much longer, probably through more congested links, an=
d higher latency=2E

David Lang
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@=
lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse m= y brevity=2E
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