From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 680983CB37 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 2024 02:20:15 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1717741211; x=1718346011; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=NjdxYJZI7GHf+gHQVbXwO98DHVKKv83o3XWyy6ECArY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=AVWkFWJ/tnDIfWri8Z2S4bsLTO2Q5EA8C+mIEJHExFaY+LXsKGH3J3L0XeOKS5g1 /cUk19S0HbNR24nx+G3BjRClT6BC0KQeKvCmbUz6UbV/j6hKMPy4UcCpT1yOFH/mr IPNRHQsdcOSMZmmz372HwLFHPUqQW8aE/qPPJfI7PdFjabQ6vCQdYwuUNhUv+zGxB 51sBRc7yBHU8k9js1A986cAHWmIhGbFSc3jr2A8ega/c5plSLtAJLNkCskfpfp4Nw ZJjYY811UQmp/JenVfQu5iegChSM38Tk+r6wMZpavR/P7FNboIE58OEyxa8P04YvY JjAglb2AMl0HbU0H+w== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M2f5Z-1sIUh3400l-00Eafl; Fri, 07 Jun 2024 08:20:10 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.600.62\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <17250.1717715438@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2024 08:20:00 +0200 Cc: starlink Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <467ccff0-5586-4b9f-b656-e1aa3d1865b4@kit.edu> <2F613DF8-3F06-4355-82F6-5543565DFE4A@gmx.de> <17250.1717715438@obiwan.sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.600.62) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jV8PXmvF54BBJKFSoCWD31tNXdvIHq82yShjqTZcyoZYzRnGjzA l8mZd8e/xvn0Ib2q7WkbZX8UfMxl/mKjtTBjaF2Ouv/yIf33iPxh5Dbu5pAA1sm5Xmwk9pz DVub5LBs4ls8L/FE15Z7SmFJKZD6ud2pXKmS7e/VDZIdqUHb9BA86xbvR7eIr/3OUuDQWiW uXNxxwC9lOW4rZCSCqP2Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:ccBiBOpidMs=;Vh7U2vwZ6LSnaQBy1VvHIpcl9Br OOPy4awlQ+KlxzNRRmCwiX94Y6eazX5NxvKghDMLhciuEdNaVUwfat0wORzr9mZmt8fJIoeL3 tUEwqCwdpCSdPk1tbCCBD8iL8gJusyFe6K4k/ipKo2N6kD57kjjc+ppcbu2cOXG/gOoI4gKH6 LXOvtAG4SqfrcTPnGmBpKrpHx2WCebwrd09IavCZa71Fq+qaeRdIahXGFw7Fomy50cUd/GKik HU2mVkX+MTTeL/RMRxSx1eCKoCtexN0XyrVQHeuiHmbQhIhtRhgwO9Eh/CYPKTeo7ltLO84rY sSrAfpn+HV6dH7P3cUQ6ACgQvOgWEIuOoUTF11sE22ebirkZzd7NfmvBK7mgImDZsQP4MaF9C HLS+sVJsuNkcxdzJ2JRc1ppwyqOkBOAlfSa6ZKkY9/9MtDu6aJBtBvEPIcWyGQbd53Uvrj+FQ WKQosMM/GoFCBQh9KPy/SiOiVSWLs3jxk1rD9EVNFmPaeXM1nBLS/vz7ODpDLLmVZ0T2yKQOB fSB9Ur5hyAtWqOJ5KIr/TfKiUvcO0TyRZbdA9nD5eIU7cOHf6VMlMM2F3G/XyRMIwV8WEe7KS Ymi7oA0sjyC6kSHZJYEYWgwMqatIO6TQazZsVygbRYHVYleUK98W31oiEh3Tja0OBE0FCoMQk tiYx9HhHm3p+OygH2zILxaHqTty4gO9odoGpBtvwbJ/UwLyjWAaCiUy8DHUc4Pz57zNQawsZd 6qmX6ygrZI9ahhYfPy7eUsQ8K6/akeibww8zDgEneHIrTPcghUHZQNI2PhXTz4tBpeJH5oTet LluIdBBe4/Y4HDyxYRXV8u0EkwxNVGDcy/x8NrI5AIavM= Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2024 06:20:15 -0000 Hi MIchael, > On 7. Jun 2024, at 01:10, Michael Richardson via Starlink = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: >> [SM] Yes, however Gaming is not in the enumerated list of use-cases = the >> regulator cares about (in the context of the minimal internet quality >> end users are guaranteed). >=20 > That's too bad, because online work/school are effectively a = technology > subset of gaming :-) [SM] I tend to agree that gamers can be seen as canaries in the coal = mine regarding latency, but in this specific case my opion on what = should or should not be taken into account is irrelevant, because the = list of use-cases is explicitly mentioned in the text of the law... = First by referencing DIRECTIVE (EU) 2018/1972 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT = AND OF THE COUNCIL of 11 December 2018 establishing the European = Electronic Communications Code = https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=3DCELEX:32018L197= 2#d1e32-196-1 ANNEX V MINIMUM SET OF SERVICES WHICH THE ADEQUATE BROADBAND INTERNET ACCESS = SERVICE IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 84(3) SHALL BE CAPABLE OF SUPPORTING (1) E-mail (2) search engines enabling search and finding of all type of = information( 3) basic training and education online tools (4) online newspapers or news (5) buying or ordering goods or services online (6) job searching and job searching tools (7) professional networking (8) internet banking (9) eGovernment service use (10) social media and instant messaging (11) calls and video calls (standard quality) and then by adding "Teleheimarbeit einschlie=C3=9Flich Verschl=C3=BCsselungsverfahren im = =C3=BCblichen Umfang und eine f=C3=BCr Verbraucher markt=C3=BCbliche = Nutzung von Online-Inhaltediensten erm=C3=B6glichen." in the text iof the law, which roughly translates to: home office/remote desktop including common encryption methods as well = as a the capability to per-use on-line content services on a level = appropriate for consumers. Note how gaming is not enumerated and at best could be read into the = 'in-line content' clause... or maybe the "(5) buying or ordering goods = or services online". I see an uphill battle arguing for loiw latency if = all I can bring, is 'gamers desire/require' lower latencies... (not that = this argument is wrong, but it ewill give me little leverage as gaming, = for all the revenue it brings (bigger than Hollywood) is not held in = high regard). > And gamers seem to know good quality, it's somewhat easy to test and = gamers > aren't afraid to demand it, changing ISPs if they have to. [SM] The context here is a right to getting internet access with = specific minimum guarantees at an affordable price, people who will need = to use this law likely have no real options... otherwise no need to = pound on that law...=20 Regards Sebastian >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink