From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from ma-mailsvcp-mx-lapp03.apple.com (ma-mailsvcp-mx-lapp03.apple.com [17.32.222.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A80433CB37 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 13:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by ma-mailsvcp-mx-lapp03.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.23.20230328 64bit (built Mar 28 2023)) with ESMTPS id <0SEO00ZCC6XO6400@ma-mailsvcp-mx-lapp03.apple.com> for starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Thu, 06 Jun 2024 10:51:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1039,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.28.16 definitions=2024-06-06_14,2024-06-06_02,2024-05-17_01 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=content-transfer-encoding : content-type : date : from : in-reply-to : message-id : mime-version : references : subject : to; s=20180706; bh=hW/nFPyn0TZ1XZgteMp3pR70w88nRGa4QOGG7WvSJaE=; b=nCucfsobqnbsYobKhnuAGpjJ0RjR3k+fucXCbQb9/NIS4aH27Heqi5PoRFAqLH5Kloo8 DmkLKKh9RbWTLeBzuNYUHTYbBjv09jE09fOoH+ibGx2cHxtD/tcpwuP/hUyNfVxXrzBU pHHr0kRnGFd3Fr59LGPBvXnr4wpEL74d5OrtXG5lPPBoNK6nh9AAWGfino1y1NWcFTuE 4ieeaN4FEVrOptb65Df3wHQLPKAja/CSa1As6DewXxZ93tnz9reOlhV8YCwQ/yVf7SOi /+f6O/umVYlPp22oKHyq1NfLZ5FJ+L5cRZ7MzUpJnPzkyBvVNZevECNQIISOQrwHx5kK zQ== Received: from mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com (mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com [10.170.185.204]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.23.20230328 64bit (built Mar 28 2023)) with ESMTPS id <0SEO00GEJ6XPSXK0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 06 Jun 2024 10:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com by mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.23.20230328 64bit (built Mar 28 2023)) id <0SEO1TX006UCHL00@mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com>; Thu, 06 Jun 2024 17:51:25 +0000 (GMT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: dd39bb8ea5e1ad5ea884d2f4d9746fcc X-Va-E-CD: be39ede3aa98eb6acd07e39c0394a365 X-Va-R-CD: 4b39a46afb8f669678b94e3b95957dd1 X-Va-ID: 91229b65-c6f8-4fda-89e4-1502df6aaad5 X-Va-CD: 0 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: dd39bb8ea5e1ad5ea884d2f4d9746fcc X-V-E-CD: be39ede3aa98eb6acd07e39c0394a365 X-V-R-CD: 4b39a46afb8f669678b94e3b95957dd1 X-V-ID: 57e1d18a-30c7-4468-bf60-b501b94ba35a X-V-CD: 0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1039,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.28.16 definitions=2024-06-06_14,2024-06-06_02,2024-05-17_01 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.234.98.113]) by mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.23.20230328 64bit (built Mar 28 2023)) with ESMTPSA id <0SEO1TK7Q6XOYU00@mr55p01nt-mmpp04.apple.com>; Thu, 06 Jun 2024 17:51:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Stuart Cheshire Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.2\)) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2024 10:51:14 -0700 References: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org> <79C02ABB-B2A6-4B4D-98F4-6540D3F96EBB@ieee.org> <7E918B58-382A-4793-A144-13A7075CA56C@connectivitycap.com> <13rq2389-9012-p95n-s494-q3pp070s497n@ynat.uz> <6qop2p3o-351p-788q-q1q2-86sosnq3rn21@ynat.uz> <3FF32F52-4A93-496B-85FF-00020FA4A48B@gmx.de> <08F6942E-CC08-4956-B92E-CBEC091D86E4@ieee.org> <2F510BD5-2D7E-4A6A-A3DE-C529D14F6FBC@apple.com> To: Rich Brown , =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Starlink , Colin_Higbie In-reply-to: Message-id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.2) Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2024 17:51:27 -0000 On Jun 4, 2024, at 16:03, Rich Brown wrote: > Yeah... I didn't write that as carefully as I could have. I was = switching between "user voice" (who'll say 'speed') and "expert" voice = (I know the difference). Check it now: = https://randomneuronsfiring.com/all-the-reasons-that-bufferbloat-isnt-a-pr= oblem/ Thanks for doing that. How about also changing =E2=80=9Cnew faster ISP plan=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9C= new bigger ISP plan=E2=80=9D? I know that may sound like a slightly = weird phrase, but getting people=E2=80=99s attention by surprising them = a little can be beneficial. If it looks weird to them and that makes = them pause and think, then that=E2=80=99s good. If the hypothetical ISP imagined here were actually willing to offer a = plan that truly provided consistently *faster* connectivity instead of = just more of the same, we=E2=80=99d be very happy. The truth today is = that most IPs offer *bigger*, not *better*. They are selling quantity, = not quality. (I am intentionally not lumping *all* ISPs into the same bucket here. = Some, like Comcast, are actually making big efforts to improve quality = as well as quantity. Comcast dramatically reduced the working latency of = my cable modem during the work-from-home pandemic, and they continue to = work on improving that even more. I want to be sure to give credit where = it is deserved.) Stuart Cheshire