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[72.253.192.210]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-1f6bd8136easm36840905ad.278.2024.06.07.10.41.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Jun 2024 10:41:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2F68288A-4A64-4F92-8FA9-D4CB1EE9CAE6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:41:10 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Y Chang , Michael Richardson , Dave Taht via Starlink To: Sebastian Moeller References: <467ccff0-5586-4b9f-b656-e1aa3d1865b4@kit.edu> <2F613DF8-3F06-4355-82F6-5543565DFE4A@gmx.de> <17250.1717715438@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2024 17:41:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2F68288A-4A64-4F92-8FA9-D4CB1EE9CAE6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1B08DBE2-374C-49DD-8A1D-7083BE65A7ED" --Apple-Mail=_1B08DBE2-374C-49DD-8A1D-7083BE65A7ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Very interesting to see this enumeration of use cases. A lot of business processes use a web portal, e.g. SalesForce. Their = productivity is highly sensitive to latency. The closes categorization = that legislators/regulators might relate to is telemarketing. A lot of = business solutions use the similar technology but not for telemarketing. = Any ideas on a better name for this group of business solutions. Having = a named use case that is sensitive to latency would help. Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang eugene.chang@ieee.org o 781-799-0233 > On Jun 6, 2024, at 8:20 PM, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Hi MIchael, >=20 >=20 >> On 7. Jun 2024, at 01:10, Michael Richardson via Starlink = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink = wrote: >>> [SM] Yes, however Gaming is not in the enumerated list of use-cases = the >>> regulator cares about (in the context of the minimal internet = quality >>> end users are guaranteed). >>=20 >> That's too bad, because online work/school are effectively a = technology >> subset of gaming :-) >=20 > [SM] I tend to agree that gamers can be seen as canaries in the coal = mine regarding latency, but in this specific case my opion on what = should or should not be taken into account is irrelevant, because the = list of use-cases is explicitly mentioned in the text of the law... = First by referencing DIRECTIVE (EU) 2018/1972 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT = AND OF THE COUNCIL of 11 December 2018 establishing the European = Electronic Communications Code > = https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=3DCELEX:32018L197= 2#d1e32-196-1 > ANNEX V > MINIMUM SET OF SERVICES WHICH THE ADEQUATE BROADBAND INTERNET ACCESS = SERVICE IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 84(3) SHALL BE CAPABLE OF SUPPORTING > (1) E-mail > (2) search engines enabling search and finding of all type of = information( > 3) basic training and education online tools > (4) online newspapers or news > (5) buying or ordering goods or services online > (6) job searching and job searching tools > (7) professional networking > (8) internet banking > (9) eGovernment service use > (10) social media and instant messaging > (11) calls and video calls (standard quality) >=20 > and then by adding > "Teleheimarbeit einschlie=C3=9Flich Verschl=C3=BCsselungsverfahren im = =C3=BCblichen Umfang und eine f=C3=BCr Verbraucher markt=C3=BCbliche = Nutzung von Online-Inhaltediensten erm=C3=B6glichen." >=20 > in the text iof the law, which roughly translates to: > home office/remote desktop including common encryption methods as well = as a the capability to per-use on-line content services on a level = appropriate for consumers. >=20 > Note how gaming is not enumerated and at best could be read into the = 'in-line content' clause... or maybe the "(5) buying or ordering goods = or services online". I see an uphill battle arguing for loiw latency if = all I can bring, is 'gamers desire/require' lower latencies... (not that = this argument is wrong, but it ewill give me little leverage as gaming, = for all the revenue it brings (bigger than Hollywood) is not held in = high regard). >=20 >> And gamers seem to know good quality, it's somewhat easy to test and = gamers >> aren't afraid to demand it, changing ISPs if they have to. >=20 > [SM] The context here is a right to getting internet access with = specific minimum guarantees at an affordable price, people who will need = to use this law likely have no real options... otherwise no need to = pound on that law... >=20 > Regards > Sebastian >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_1B08DBE2-374C-49DD-8A1D-7083BE65A7ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Very = interesting to see this enumeration of use cases.

A lot of business processes use a web = portal, e.g. SalesForce. Their productivity is highly sensitive to = latency. The closes categorization that legislators/regulators might = relate to is telemarketing. A lot of business solutions use the similar = technology but not for telemarketing. Any ideas on a better name for = this group of business solutions. Having a named use case that is = sensitive to latency would help.

Gene
-------------------------------------------= ---
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@ieee.org
o 781-799-0233




On Jun 6, 2024, at 8:20 PM, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Hi = MIchael,


On 7. Jun 2024, at 01:10, Michael Richardson = via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
[SM] Yes, however Gaming = is not in the enumerated list of use-cases the
regulator = cares about (in the context of the minimal internet quality
end users are guaranteed).

That's too bad, because online work/school are effectively a = technology
subset of gaming :-)

[SM] I tend to agree that gamers = can be seen as canaries in the coal mine regarding latency, but in this = specific case my opion on what should or should not be taken into = account is irrelevant, because the list of use-cases is explicitly = mentioned in the text of the law...  First by referencing DIRECTIVE = (EU) 2018/1972 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 11 = December 2018 establishing the European Electronic Communications = Code
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=3DCELE= X:32018L1972#d1e32-196-1
ANNEX V
MINIMUM = SET OF SERVICES WHICH THE ADEQUATE BROADBAND INTERNET ACCESS SERVICE IN = ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 84(3) SHALL BE CAPABLE OF SUPPORTING
(1) E-mail
(2) search engines enabling search = and finding of all type of information(
3) basic training = and education online tools
(4) online newspapers or = news
(5) buying or ordering goods or services online
(6) job searching and job searching tools
(7) = professional networking
(8) internet banking
(9) eGovernment service use
(10) social media = and instant messaging
(11) calls and video calls (standard = quality)

and then by adding
"Teleheimarbeit einschlie=C3=9Flich = Verschl=C3=BCsselungsverfahren im =C3=BCblichen Umfang und eine f=C3=BCr = Verbraucher markt=C3=BCbliche Nutzung von Online-Inhaltediensten = erm=C3=B6glichen."

in the text iof the law, = which roughly translates to:
home office/remote desktop = including common encryption methods as well as a the capability to = per-use on-line content services on a level appropriate for = consumers.

Note how gaming is not = enumerated and at best could be read into the 'in-line content' = clause... or maybe the "(5) buying or ordering goods or services = online". I see an uphill battle arguing for loiw latency if all I can = bring, is 'gamers desire/require' lower latencies... (not that this = argument is wrong, but it ewill give me little leverage as gaming, for = all the revenue it brings (bigger than Hollywood) is not held in high = regard).

And gamers seem to know good quality, it's somewhat easy to = test and gamers
aren't afraid to demand it, changing ISPs = if they have to.

[SM] The = context here is a right to getting internet access with specific minimum = guarantees at an affordable price, people who will need to use this law = likely have no real options... otherwise no need to pound on that law... =

Regards
= Sebastian





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Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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