From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 609253B29D for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 03:56:33 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1742284591; x=1742889391; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=4IF4S8Q8sa89qIuDswbyYd+ANpF2Qp+wHThsJ5DUzAI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=SZeFna8GZTo0LPz6fzp6lrQPAG+Hlmwbxd1IZ834zbcmutehAQJ8iJ5x9ZBwDp44 fyoJsHD+gPrh5NYbXX4LwYxX8awlLpdDJ0/1E7TecF8nBde6kQo4DDFM485k9i1YY 0T24tnZALbACqQJJm8KBCblD7VT46MuKkXQBnspCPV87XGtrFLcVjm0eYhWI+Q+rL J9NCvAuDpAHeJygwI2ix3grxtO7Cd7ANowEjYq4GUVe2qe14TgZwuzxswIy5O2ess feripMlNeS1qanJ9wtid2pVF6L+fPLKhKohGvVJ+rZnbaZlbVA6JcdhdNvC5KNZM1 JLWv22PjGIGghPAb4A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M7b2T-1toh3C2jYz-00BBQI; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 08:56:31 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.400.131.1.6\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <524ae111-aa24-4fb8-9447-c4046902987d@Spark> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 08:56:21 +0100 Cc: Starlink , 5grm-satellite@ieee.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6nn799r0-q896-4osn-23no-733oorno0p55@ynat.uz> <1oqn4685-8qsp-923n-9p4s-487rn4p65o77@ynat.uz> <822574.1742275322@dyas> <524ae111-aa24-4fb8-9447-c4046902987d@Spark> To: Mike Puchol X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.400.131.1.6) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3vMuEVZKYAFaWFYy+Cs01uekMNUiz4VLX2Bo53MOlkwQCccAdQ/ SAeL6mWUroo3SxTfBNcw6UG4ZcN8NuA8KTn+dbjH+YDHYkiwedF1KLAEXrfHK5Qv69JacOn EHcwfeo2vH3DUTglJS9OQLXAfJc/BdoIrtDeREDJ6pLDF7EtA5rN/GoqM/4CmRpdGEqNdJI XtppSsbdzpTRikaaRfv7g== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:4TlE72oFhVI=;k+tzhcR6V3A5x3l8HdTkdfdZP6R Hdc5YtCzqAMiihdz8bMRVQ/NIyLSAv+wRsckVWGf+HAc0gP7H4NC9sdWAMI/194tqm+srj+BS 7Om6mcw4EPVRvkY4tk8NTZlbxXv2JtK+r09dIrQFRgm4EEf6QbJ6nVXg8fxUmVCNaRXGxr5zW 2k3NeE/KLw2ZSS6YjKgaR3z2/glFIC/5xhZwKlkO7LHQfYcFppEZPZvKiAXCZxJqqqZLEpng3 MGwf+B6iDxmZ0bpHfOSTn22J4rqVcENaIZlGFOScuEiq1+3tojRioBEm/h5KLTtvzU1k4W0iK 4BzOtwEQMftpwlv3g/Lj3V1kt0YiEJIELl98svXjqIo0r57D4kYBIU+EKBkQClN9uOkvHjThj Wf2mcbfVZBp79DXljSnEyDYWtUJllL0Qi0m/LkRWHzvVqlw4XLf0T8U8Awl2+ib6tWABImsKw 0oQJC/FKYwOasCbp+c13ignLcMvCoNC2lIL0YtuQpv6qYR3eHObdLlG9NhLq3xHpLak651AoM yrYcF4FFx8ArBk/IXt3wZjv+Rj18omuKwQ4Hof1AhzY8O+nQ/J8NKZUMmKeuAJtomF+Auk8gW cnNJ5X5o1PexUKGSWtTMZTS9eR6ZVvx2NMVaRzG/rnAJEjUeA9cwcWfeEsghp9wanO2A29+HD o9MnxaPPzXwApvontaBius81GIfsUdHTbTAHxXyOne3Jt+i/Wev5zpob7pajn9yz7Dk0iLnOh zFhewz2HJ8pzMLe0C4vPYlbjLqKbAyVkjcUXOFZPbGUTCmOiznLRFGMefZ4SfdvlrW7c2f8kJ NTPj36xjTk6OnMsenqiOQcK201LG0P4ZjshcPaq3dQT/P/uQyefI4U5slQZkWPTbf7yp/HaJZ 4SD2ebuv2+wIo540QGKuP5xsOrAPmmC3DPkPzuRDN1xfOHWqHiPPq2LODPMf4mrO0/xJf7r4x rbN0UYwei3f+hv+RTp+yzjXosBskchcX8eGlYUuglTy7XDt0dRm+TYBd3/p00mrIt+xzqI3Zm Hr5JxSKduHM4OxPyBn9k/06c6GCoMfxHaS5nCyOYHHsRdEISc1HWtbMYcZxctxkBM2oN3UEI4 i3sX7QGUj/++tMcm3XPE7TByzT/GehzjSi/TI+aWDlsc/8iGEs1ozN9EY/jLfHO7sSjI1pBHJ gwYpdXogNqjzgC8oiaGqbQUXxYWPj1Q9QSYCSfz4Af4aT5i7NXVmLs83kCiExSc/AmWs1YwNZ ZlElQxVNNzcWspq7HAHFu3AIO97Za7TDw24A6GjWGqU28dTEUPhM/R6KXU1PWYvOUuw7hAZQk z2Ym+xLlk8zfcPDEXBJAkMus1A18HDEFlIba7HewqRzICY50NjJ9WsoHMzcA266Ufwwxe0IJ+ tg/o04nqEwl2wIeAC9/hlKkTjY3jFMY08el0MNa9GRWAuRq7TuD6/kDTTljCaYIpuYDDbFi7Q ms+f2I74kYQLEqeb5kIyo6BsRS+aui1f8IYfIB85wry9EOHiOehedoYj8KqXJSQRwRlajog== Subject: Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 07:56:33 -0000 Mike, thank you very much fir sharing that information with us. Makes a ton of = sense, But let me ask when is Taara becoming the next facelink/starbook? = ;) > On 18. Mar 2025, at 07:43, Mike Puchol via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > As I work for Taara, I=E2=80=99ll be happy to answer doubts & = questions where I can!=20 >=20 > With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal = musings, and not the official position of Taara - I=E2=80=99m not in PR = or marcomms. >=20 > IMHO the =E2=80=9CTaara is going to compete with Starlink=E2=80=9D is = a comment that was taken by a reporter and turned into the major = headline. Think of it in terms of every time you heard of a social = network startup becoming the new =E2=80=9CFacebook killer=E2=80=9D. = Taara is currently playing in the middle mile, it is point to point, = terrestrial only, and will move into last mile with the help of the = optical phased array (the =E2=80=9CTaara chip=E2=80=9D that was = announced at MWC). >=20 > In order to directly compete with Starlink, we=E2=80=99d have to = become a fully fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole = distribution down to individual customers - and we know what kind of = investment that requires. Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as = Starlink? Sure. Can we help in urban cellular networks where = densification is challenged by congested RF and costly fiber? Yes = indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No. >=20 > As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, = Earth-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is = 20 km as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully = closed a link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could = achieve 75 km with zero margin. >=20 > How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse = pointing mirror which gives us 6=C2=BA at slow rates (think compensation = for structural movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering = mirror that can adjust 0.5=C2=BA at very high rates, used to compensate = vibrations, and to some extent, scintillation. >=20 > The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and = compress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing = mirror and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and = steering the laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front = errors, something we can=E2=80=99t do with Lightbridge. >=20 > Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of = dB/km at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, = we can be deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases = are capacity upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave = link with another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator = can gain 20 Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time. >=20 > Best, >=20 > Mike > On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael Richardson via Starlink = , wrote: >>=20 >> David Lang via Starlink wrote: >>> Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I = assumed >>> that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no >>> satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink = competitor >>> as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and >>> provide service everywhere. >>=20 >> (It would work fine for the flat earth types though) >> (or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword) >>=20 >> But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades = ago. >> I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting = new rights >> of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be >> involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any = new >> entrants. >>=20 >> So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me. >> Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's = north. >>=20 >> Just not between pacific islands. >>=20 >> -- >> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink