[Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Benjamin Henrion]

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Hi,

Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia by
spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712

Best,

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Sebastian Moeller]

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Excluding the somewhat dubious economic rationale here, I wonder if starlink would be fooled by this if the actual service area would be far away from colombia (for a nominally fixed location/non-roaming contract). They should have a decent idea which satellites cover the target location at any time and might restrict routing to those 'birds', no?

On 1 January 2023 12:18:04 CET, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia by
>spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board:
>
>https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712
>
>Best,

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Oleg Kutkov]

Hi,

Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it 
can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it).

I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating 
system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system.
Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the 
client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and 
areas are scheduled.

Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync 
the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system.


On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia 
> by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board:
>
> https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712
>
> Best,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

-- 
Best regards,
Oleg Kutkov

Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Oleg,

Tangential question below.

On 1 January 2023 12:49:20 CET, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it).
>
>I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system.
>Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and areas are scheduled.
>
>Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system.

[SM] Do dishies export their high quality time via NTP or PTP to their LANs?

Regards
        Sebastian

>
>
>On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board:
>> 
>> https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Nathan Owens]

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They don't currently, but that would be a fun thing for them to do.

On Sun, Jan 1, 2023 at 4:02 AM Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Hi Oleg,
>
> Tangential question below.
>
> On 1 January 2023 12:49:20 CET, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it can't
> be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it).
> >
> >I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating
> system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system.
> >Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the
> client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and
> areas are scheduled.
> >
> >Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync
> the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system.
>
> [SM] Do dishies export their high quality time via NTP or PTP to their
> LANs?
>
> Regards
>         Sebastian
>
> >
> >
> >On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia by
> spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board:
> >>
> >> https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Starlink mailing list
> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> >
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Benjamin Henrion]

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Le dim. 1 janv. 2023 à 12:49, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it
> can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it).
>

Here they describe another method with gps jammers:

https://gpspatron.com/spoofing-a-multi-band-rtk-gnss-receiver-with-hackrf-one-and-gnss-jammer/


> I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating
> system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system.
> Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the
> client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and
> areas are scheduled.
>
> Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync
> the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system.
>
>
> On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia
> > by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board:
> >
> > https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Oleg Kutkov
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Mike Puchol]

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I can confirm that spoofing with “non-milspec” methods don’t seem to work against the receiver in the Starlink terminal. I tried with a HackRF and a USRP and it didn’t work, while an Android phone was spoofed fine. I was however able to jam the receiver with very moderate power levels and a sweep generated with a HackRF Portapack and patch antenna.

Best,

Mike
On Jan 1, 2023 at 17:23 +0100, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
> > Le dim. 1 janv. 2023 à 12:49, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit :
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it
> > > can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it).
>
> Here they describe another method with gps jammers:
>
> https://gpspatron.com/spoofing-a-multi-band-rtk-gnss-receiver-with-hackrf-one-and-gnss-jammer/
>
> > >
> > > I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating
> > > system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system.
> > > Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the
> > > client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and
> > > areas are scheduled.
> > >
> > > Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync
> > > the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia
> > > > by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board:
> > > >
> > > > https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Starlink mailing list
> > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > > Oleg Kutkov
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Starlink mailing list
> > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing

[Oleg Kutkov]

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There is also interesting behavior. If you physically disconnect the 
Starlink GNSS receiver from the SoC, it still connects to the Starlink 
satellites, but it takes up to 20-25 minutes. It looks like there is 
some fallback mechanism, like RF sync on their own satellites.

But for normal operation, they use GNSS (GPS + Galileo) to set the 
system time faster.

On 1/1/23 19:09, Mike Puchol via Starlink wrote:
> I can confirm that spoofing with “non-milspec” methods don’t seem to 
> work against the receiver in the Starlink terminal. I tried with a 
> HackRF and a USRP and it didn’t work, while an Android phone was 
> spoofed fine. I was however able to jam the receiver with very 
> moderate power levels and a sweep generated with a HackRF Portapack 
> and patch antenna.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> On Jan 1, 2023 at 17:23 +0100, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink 
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
>> Le dim. 1 janv. 2023 à 12:49, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink 
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit :
>>
>>     Hi,
>>
>>     Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it
>>     can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it).
>>
>>
>> Here they describe another method with gps jammers:
>>
>> https://gpspatron.com/spoofing-a-multi-band-rtk-gnss-receiver-with-hackrf-one-and-gnss-jammer/
>>
>>
>>     I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy
>>     operating
>>     system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system.
>>     Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the
>>     client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all
>>     clients and
>>     areas are scheduled.
>>
>>     Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to
>>     sync
>>     the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system.
>>
>>
>>     On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote:
>>     > Hi,
>>     >
>>     > Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in
>>     Colombia
>>     > by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board:
>>     >
>>     >
>>     https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712
>>     >
>>     > Best,
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > Starlink mailing list
>>     > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>     > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>     --
>>     Best regards,
>>     Oleg Kutkov
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Starlink mailing list
>>     Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>     https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

-- 
Best regards,
Oleg Kutkov

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