* [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing @ 2023-01-01 11:18 Benjamin Henrion 2023-01-01 11:48 ` Sebastian Moeller 2023-01-01 11:49 ` Oleg Kutkov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Benjamin Henrion @ 2023-01-01 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Starlink list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 194 bytes --] Hi, Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board: https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712 Best, [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 439 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing 2023-01-01 11:18 [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing Benjamin Henrion @ 2023-01-01 11:48 ` Sebastian Moeller 2023-01-01 11:49 ` Oleg Kutkov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Sebastian Moeller @ 2023-01-01 11:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zoobab, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink, Starlink list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 741 bytes --] Excluding the somewhat dubious economic rationale here, I wonder if starlink would be fooled by this if the actual service area would be far away from colombia (for a nominally fixed location/non-roaming contract). They should have a decent idea which satellites cover the target location at any time and might restrict routing to those 'birds', no? On 1 January 2023 12:18:04 CET, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >Hi, > >Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia by >spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board: > >https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712 > >Best, -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1228 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing 2023-01-01 11:18 [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing Benjamin Henrion 2023-01-01 11:48 ` Sebastian Moeller @ 2023-01-01 11:49 ` Oleg Kutkov 2023-01-01 12:01 ` Sebastian Moeller 2023-01-01 16:23 ` Benjamin Henrion 1 sibling, 2 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Oleg Kutkov @ 2023-01-01 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: starlink Hi, Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it). I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system. Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and areas are scheduled. Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system. On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote: > Hi, > > Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia > by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board: > > https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712 > > Best, > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- Best regards, Oleg Kutkov ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing 2023-01-01 11:49 ` Oleg Kutkov @ 2023-01-01 12:01 ` Sebastian Moeller 2023-01-01 14:26 ` Nathan Owens 2023-01-01 16:23 ` Benjamin Henrion 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Sebastian Moeller @ 2023-01-01 12:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Oleg Kutkov, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink, starlink Hi Oleg, Tangential question below. On 1 January 2023 12:49:20 CET, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >Hi, > >Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it). > >I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system. >Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and areas are scheduled. > >Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system. [SM] Do dishies export their high quality time via NTP or PTP to their LANs? Regards Sebastian > > >On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board: >> >> https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712 >> >> Best, >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing 2023-01-01 12:01 ` Sebastian Moeller @ 2023-01-01 14:26 ` Nathan Owens 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Nathan Owens @ 2023-01-01 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sebastian Moeller; +Cc: Oleg Kutkov, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1722 bytes --] They don't currently, but that would be a fun thing for them to do. On Sun, Jan 1, 2023 at 4:02 AM Sebastian Moeller via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Hi Oleg, > > Tangential question below. > > On 1 January 2023 12:49:20 CET, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >Hi, > > > >Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it can't > be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it). > > > >I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating > system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system. > >Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the > client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and > areas are scheduled. > > > >Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync > the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system. > > [SM] Do dishies export their high quality time via NTP or PTP to their > LANs? > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > > >On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia by > spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board: > >> > >> https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712 > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2818 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing 2023-01-01 11:49 ` Oleg Kutkov 2023-01-01 12:01 ` Sebastian Moeller @ 2023-01-01 16:23 ` Benjamin Henrion 2023-01-01 17:09 ` Mike Puchol 1 sibling, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Benjamin Henrion @ 2023-01-01 16:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Oleg Kutkov; +Cc: Starlink list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1518 bytes --] Le dim. 1 janv. 2023 à 12:49, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit : > Hi, > > Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it > can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it). > Here they describe another method with gps jammers: https://gpspatron.com/spoofing-a-multi-band-rtk-gnss-receiver-with-hackrf-one-and-gnss-jammer/ > I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating > system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system. > Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the > client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and > areas are scheduled. > > Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync > the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system. > > > On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia > > by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board: > > > > https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712 > > > > Best, > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > -- > Best regards, > Oleg Kutkov > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2835 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing 2023-01-01 16:23 ` Benjamin Henrion @ 2023-01-01 17:09 ` Mike Puchol 2023-01-01 17:17 ` Oleg Kutkov 0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread From: Mike Puchol @ 2023-01-01 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Starlink list; +Cc: Starlink list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2314 bytes --] I can confirm that spoofing with “non-milspec” methods don’t seem to work against the receiver in the Starlink terminal. I tried with a HackRF and a USRP and it didn’t work, while an Android phone was spoofed fine. I was however able to jam the receiver with very moderate power levels and a sweep generated with a HackRF Portapack and patch antenna. Best, Mike On Jan 1, 2023 at 17:23 +0100, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote: > > Le dim. 1 janv. 2023 à 12:49, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit : > > > Hi, > > > > > > Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it > > > can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it). > > Here they describe another method with gps jammers: > > https://gpspatron.com/spoofing-a-multi-band-rtk-gnss-receiver-with-hackrf-one-and-gnss-jammer/ > > > > > > > I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy operating > > > system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system. > > > Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the > > > client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all clients and > > > areas are scheduled. > > > > > > Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to sync > > > the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system. > > > > > > > > > On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in Colombia > > > > by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board: > > > > > > > > https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712 > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > -- > > > Best regards, > > > Oleg Kutkov > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4032 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing 2023-01-01 17:09 ` Mike Puchol @ 2023-01-01 17:17 ` Oleg Kutkov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread From: Oleg Kutkov @ 2023-01-01 17:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2958 bytes --] There is also interesting behavior. If you physically disconnect the Starlink GNSS receiver from the SoC, it still connects to the Starlink satellites, but it takes up to 20-25 minutes. It looks like there is some fallback mechanism, like RF sync on their own satellites. But for normal operation, they use GNSS (GPS + Galileo) to set the system time faster. On 1/1/23 19:09, Mike Puchol via Starlink wrote: > I can confirm that spoofing with “non-milspec” methods don’t seem to > work against the receiver in the Starlink terminal. I tried with a > HackRF and a USRP and it didn’t work, while an Android phone was > spoofed fine. I was however able to jam the receiver with very > moderate power levels and a sweep generated with a HackRF Portapack > and patch antenna. > > Best, > > Mike > On Jan 1, 2023 at 17:23 +0100, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink > <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote: >> Le dim. 1 janv. 2023 à 12:49, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit : >> >> Hi, >> >> Starlink has a multisystem GNSS receiver with data filtering, so it >> can't be fooled with the single HackRF (i tested it). >> >> >> Here they describe another method with gps jammers: >> >> https://gpspatron.com/spoofing-a-multi-band-rtk-gnss-receiver-with-hackrf-one-and-gnss-jammer/ >> >> >> I experimented with NMEA data injected directly into the Dishy >> operating >> system, so I can tell there is no way to cheat the system. >> Satellites know your location a wouldn't accept a connection from the >> client in an unexpected Cell. All connection slots for all >> clients and >> areas are scheduled. >> >> Besides this, Starlink requires valid and strict GNSS and 1PPS to >> sync >> the local clock, that's vital for the TDD system. >> >> >> On 1/1/23 13:18, Benjamin Henrion via Starlink wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > Just wondering if you could pay less by pretending to be in >> Colombia >> > by spoofing gps sats with a HackRF board: >> > >> > >> https://mobile.twitter.com/GeoffreyHuntley/status/1609490537484275712 >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Starlink mailing list >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Oleg Kutkov >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- Best regards, Oleg Kutkov [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7475 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-01-01 17:17 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-01-01 11:18 [Starlink] Starlink cheaper in Colombia,cand gps spoofing Benjamin Henrion 2023-01-01 11:48 ` Sebastian Moeller 2023-01-01 11:49 ` Oleg Kutkov 2023-01-01 12:01 ` Sebastian Moeller 2023-01-01 14:26 ` Nathan Owens 2023-01-01 16:23 ` Benjamin Henrion 2023-01-01 17:09 ` Mike Puchol 2023-01-01 17:17 ` Oleg Kutkov
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