[Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Dotzero]

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I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email
that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also
indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to
go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also
"pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.

Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it
makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.

According to
https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US,
latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up
will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Dave Taht]

Awesome. We don't have any data on their best effort service. It would
be my hope they configure things
with buffering suitable for that range of achievable speeds.

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:53 PM Dotzero via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>
> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>
> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink



-- 
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Dotzero]

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It appears they sent the email about best effort service to lots of people.

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 4:02 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> Awesome. We don't have any data on their best effort service. It would
> be my hope they configure things
> with buffering suitable for that range of achievable speeds.
>
> On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:53 PM Dotzero via Starlink
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an
> email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also
> indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to
> go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also
> "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
> >
> > Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If
> it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
> >
> > According to
> https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US,
> latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up
> will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
>
> --
> FQ World Domination pending:
> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[David Lang]

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they sent it to everyone on the waiting lists.

I've used my dishy in 'roaming' mode, which is best effort and it worked better 
than trying to teather to my cell phone (the only other choice in the area) ;-)

I think the results are going to vary wildly depending on how heavy usage is in 
your area.

David Lang

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Dotzero via Starlink wrote:

> It appears they sent the email about best effort service to lots of people.
>
> On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 4:02 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Awesome. We don't have any data on their best effort service. It would
>> be my hope they configure things
>> with buffering suitable for that range of achievable speeds.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:53 PM Dotzero via Starlink
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an
>> email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also
>> indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to
>> go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also
>> "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>>>
>>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If
>> it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>>>
>>> According to
>> https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US,
>> latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up
>> will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> FQ World Domination pending:
>> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>
>

Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Dave Taht]

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 1:59 PM Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It appears they sent the email about best effort service to lots of people.

I imagine with them boasting about 1m routers made, that they have
inventory to ship! And really, if they
get the buffering under control, "best effort" would be pretty good, IMHO.

btw, today the cake-autorate team shipped v1.1 of the code, tested
against lte, 5g, cable and starlink. They've made
good progress on detecting when network conditions deteriorate and
recover. Give it a shot via:

https://forum.openwrt.org/t/cake-w-adaptive-bandwidth/135379/2

> On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 4:02 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Awesome. We don't have any data on their best effort service. It would
>> be my hope they configure things
>> with buffering suitable for that range of achievable speeds.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 12:53 PM Dotzero via Starlink
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>> >
>> > Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>> >
>> > According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Starlink mailing list
>> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC



-- 
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Eugene Y Chang]

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What is the definition and differences between regular and best effort service?

Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more “real”. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)



> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
> 
> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[David Lang]

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The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you beef up the 
contellation overall, not in any one area.

David Lang

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:

> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:07:43 -1000
> From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
> To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>
> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
> 
> What is the definition and differences between regular and best effort service?
>
> Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more “real”. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).
>
> Gene
> ----------------------------------------------
> Eugene Chang
> IEEE Senior Life Member
> eugene.chang@ieee.org
> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>
>
>
>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>>
>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>>
>> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>

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_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Eugene Y Chang]

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Yes and no.

Yes they can beef up the constellation, one section at a time. (For a given launch, the are enhancing a particular orbit.)

Depending on your definition of “one area” when you say “not in any one area”.
Technically they would beef up an area in the shape of strips, where the strip is the ground under the orbit of the additional (new) satellites.

Sorry, when I say “add service to an area”, it implies adding coverage to strips of land, the land under the new satellite orbit.

https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink <https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink>


Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)



> On Sep 28, 2022, at 1:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
> 
> The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you beef up the contellation overall, not in any one area.
> 
> David Lang
> 
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
> 
>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:07:43 -1000
>> From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Reply-To: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>> To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>> What is the definition and differences between regular and best effort service?
>> 
>> Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more “real”. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).
>> 
>> Gene
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Eugene Chang
>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>>> 
>>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>>> 
>>> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[David Lang]

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that strip of land is different every orbit, a given satellite doesn't pass over 
the same land each orbit.

David Lang

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang wrote:

> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 14:40:35 -1000
> From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
> Cc: Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>, Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>,
>     Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
> 
> Yes and no.
>
> Yes they can beef up the constellation, one section at a time. (For a given launch, the are enhancing a particular orbit.)
>
> Depending on your definition of “one area” when you say “not in any one area”.
> Technically they would beef up an area in the shape of strips, where the strip is the ground under the orbit of the additional (new) satellites.
>
> Sorry, when I say “add service to an area”, it implies adding coverage to strips of land, the land under the new satellite orbit.
>
> https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink <https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink>
>
>
> Gene
> ----------------------------------------------
> Eugene Chang
> IEEE Senior Life Member
> eugene.chang@ieee.org
> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>
>
>
>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 1:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>> The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you beef up the contellation overall, not in any one area.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:07:43 -1000
>>> From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Reply-To: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>> To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>>> What is the definition and differences between regular and best effort service?
>>>
>>> Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more “real”. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> Eugene Chang
>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>>>>
>>>> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>

Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Eugene Y Chang]

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Good point… that sure makes matching new capacity to new subscribers really hard.

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)



> On Sep 28, 2022, at 6:29 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
> 
> that strip of land is different every orbit, a given satellite doesn't pass over the same land each orbit.
> 
> David Lang
> 
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang wrote:
> 
>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 14:40:35 -1000
>> From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>> Cc: Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>, Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>,
>>    Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>> Yes and no.
>> 
>> Yes they can beef up the constellation, one section at a time. (For a given launch, the are enhancing a particular orbit.)
>> 
>> Depending on your definition of “one area” when you say “not in any one area”.
>> Technically they would beef up an area in the shape of strips, where the strip is the ground under the orbit of the additional (new) satellites.
>> 
>> Sorry, when I say “add service to an area”, it implies adding coverage to strips of land, the land under the new satellite orbit.
>> 
>> https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink <https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink>
>> 
>> 
>> Gene
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Eugene Chang
>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 1:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you beef up the contellation overall, not in any one area.
>>> 
>>> David Lang
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:07:43 -1000
>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Reply-To: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>>> To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>>>> What is the definition and differences between regular and best effort service?
>>>> 
>>>> Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more “real”. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).
>>>> 
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>>>>> 
>>>>> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> 


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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Sebastian Moeller]

> On Sep 29, 2022, at 09:50, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Good point… that sure makes matching new capacity to new subscribers really hard.

	[SM] Or easy: "just" add more satellites ;) some of the added capacity should also end up at new subscribers... SCNR

Regards
	Sebastian


> 
> Gene
> ----------------------------------------------
> Eugene Chang
> IEEE Senior Life Member
> eugene.chang@ieee.org
> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 6:29 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>> 
>> that strip of land is different every orbit, a given satellite doesn't pass over the same land each orbit.
>> 
>> David Lang
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang wrote:
>> 
>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 14:40:35 -1000
>>> From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>> Cc: Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>, Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>,
>>>    Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>>> Yes and no.
>>> 
>>> Yes they can beef up the constellation, one section at a time. (For a given launch, the are enhancing a particular orbit.)
>>> 
>>> Depending on your definition of “one area” when you say “not in any one area”.
>>> Technically they would beef up an area in the shape of strips, where the strip is the ground under the orbit of the additional (new) satellites.
>>> 
>>> Sorry, when I say “add service to an area”, it implies adding coverage to strips of land, the land under the new satellite orbit.
>>> 
>>> https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink <https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Gene
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> Eugene Chang
>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 1:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you beef up the contellation overall, not in any one area.
>>>> 
>>>> David Lang
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:07:43 -1000
>>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>> Reply-To: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>>>> To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>>>>> What is the definition and differences between regular and best effort service?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more “real”. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gene
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[David Lang]

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On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Sebastian Moeller wrote:

>> On Sep 29, 2022, at 09:50, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Good point… that sure makes matching new capacity to new subscribers really hard.
>
> 	[SM] Or easy: "just" add more satellites ;) some of the added capacity should also end up at new subscribers... SCNR

yep, which is what they are doing. ;-)

there is some that they can do in terms of the ground station positioning, 
density, and connectivity.

David Lang

> Regards
> 	Sebastian
>
>
>>
>> Gene
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Eugene Chang
>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 6:29 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>
>>> that strip of land is different every orbit, a given satellite doesn't pass over the same land each orbit.
>>>
>>> David Lang
>>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang wrote:
>>>
>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 14:40:35 -1000
>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>, Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>,
>>>>    Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>>>> Yes and no.
>>>>
>>>> Yes they can beef up the constellation, one section at a time. (For a given launch, the are enhancing a particular orbit.)
>>>>
>>>> Depending on your definition of “one area” when you say “not in any one area”.
>>>> Technically they would beef up an area in the shape of strips, where the strip is the ground under the orbit of the additional (new) satellites.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, when I say “add service to an area”, it implies adding coverage to strips of land, the land under the new satellite orbit.
>>>>
>>>> https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink <https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 1:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you beef up the contellation overall, not in any one area.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:07:43 -1000
>>>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>> Reply-To: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>>>>> To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>>>>>> What is the definition and differences between regular and best effort service?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more “real”. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>

Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Eugene Y Chang]

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Hmmmm….. is ground station positioning more about geographic topology or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to manage subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher capacity ground stations than by distributing ground stations.

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)



> On Sep 28, 2022, at 11:14 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
> 
>>> On Sep 29, 2022, at 09:50, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Good point… that sure makes matching new capacity to new subscribers really hard.
>> 
>> 	[SM] Or easy: "just" add more satellites ;) some of the added capacity should also end up at new subscribers... SCNR
> 
> yep, which is what they are doing. ;-)
> 
> there is some that they can do in terms of the ground station positioning, density, and connectivity.
> 
> David Lang
> 
>> Regards
>> 	Sebastian
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Gene
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> Eugene Chang
>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 6:29 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> that strip of land is different every orbit, a given satellite doesn't pass over the same land each orbit.
>>>> 
>>>> David Lang
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 14:40:35 -1000
>>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>>> Cc: Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>, Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>,
>>>>>   Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>>>>> Yes and no.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes they can beef up the constellation, one section at a time. (For a given launch, the are enhancing a particular orbit.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Depending on your definition of “one area” when you say “not in any one area”.
>>>>> Technically they would beef up an area in the shape of strips, where the strip is the ground under the orbit of the additional (new) satellites.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sorry, when I say “add service to an area”, it implies adding coverage to strips of land, the land under the new satellite orbit.
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink <https://satellitemap.space/?constellation=starlink>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gene
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 1:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Starlink satellites are in low orbit (<90 min), so you beef up the contellation overall, not in any one area.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 13:07:43 -1000
>>>>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>> Reply-To: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>>>>>> To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering
>>>>>>> What is the definition and differences between regular and best effort service?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Creating two bookings queue, wait list and best effort subscribers, the best effort subscribers are more “real”. With that, treating best effort subscribers as a (more) "real customer" backlog, it would be a good way to prioritize where to expand the constellation (i.e. where to add capacity).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>>>> IEEE Senior Life Member
>>>>>>> eugene.chang@ieee.org
>>>>>>> 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sep 28, 2022, at 9:53 AM, Dotzero via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I've been on the wait list for almost 10 months and just received an email that I can sign up for a "best efforts" offering. Seeing as they also indicated the estimated time for regular service is mid-2023, I decided to go with it (You don't lose your place on the wait list). You can also "pause" the best effort service so I don't really have anything to lose.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Has anyone had experience with this offering? Any input appreciated. If it makes a difference, location is Central East Ohio.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> According to https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US <https://www.starlink.com/legal/documents/DOC-1002-69942-69?regionCode=US>, latency will be comparable to regular service, down will be 5-100mbs and up will be 1-10mps unless service is deprioritized due to congestion.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> 


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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Michael Richardson]

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Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
    > Hmmmm….. is ground station positioning more about geographic topology
    > or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to manage
    > subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher capacity
    > ground stations than by distributing ground stations.

Until they have satellite to satellite routing, the ground stations have to
be "near" the users that they serve.

My understanding from this list is that's why they couldn't easily help Tongo: it
was all just ocean "nearby" (and why they can help Ukraine)




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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Nathan Owens]

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The laser mesh might be working already, see:

-
https://old.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/xrvn2x/first_impressions_of_a_laseronly_user/
-
https://old.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/xr3ali/update_snowy_owl_helped_dishy_do_a_speed_test_at/
-
https://old.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/xd9qt3/greater_availability_in_alaska/
-
https://old.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/wwg0nc/starlink_speed_test_in_nigeria/

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 5:38 AM Michael Richardson via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
> Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>     > Hmmmm….. is ground station positioning more about geographic topology
>     > or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to manage
>     > subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher
> capacity
>     > ground stations than by distributing ground stations.
>
> Until they have satellite to satellite routing, the ground stations have to
> be "near" the users that they serve.
>
> My understanding from this list is that's why they couldn't easily help
> Tongo: it
> was all just ocean "nearby" (and why they can help Ukraine)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Eugene Chang]

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Ow… the implications on no satellite to satellite routing is all traffic is one-hop. That puts limits on big patches of the Pacific Basin. (And not a solution for trans-pacific aircraft.)

Any clues how far apart are the ground stations? That is a lot of ground stations. This makes me reconsider (terrestrial) fixed-wireless as an alternative.

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)





> On Sep 30, 2022, at 2:38 AM, Michael Richardson via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Signed PGP part
> 
> Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> Hmmmm….. is ground station positioning more about geographic topology
>> or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to manage
>> subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher capacity
>> ground stations than by distributing ground stations.
> 
> Until they have satellite to satellite routing, the ground stations have to
> be "near" the users that they serve.
> 
> My understanding from this list is that's why they couldn't easily help Tongo: it
> was all just ocean "nearby" (and why they can help Ukraine)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Nathan Owens]

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They intend to cover the whole ocean between ~-57 and 57 N by the end of
2022: https://api.starlink.com/public-files/maritime-coverage-map.pdf

Per the posts I linked, the lasers are seemingly already working and
covering some areas.

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 10:24 AM Eugene Chang via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Ow… the implications on no satellite to satellite routing is all traffic
> is one-hop. That puts limits on big patches of the Pacific Basin. (And not
> a solution for trans-pacific aircraft.)
>
> Any clues how far apart are the ground stations? That is a lot of ground
> stations. This makes me reconsider (terrestrial) fixed-wireless as an
> alternative.
>
> Gene
> -----------------------------------
> Eugene Chang
> eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
> +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 30, 2022, at 2:38 AM, Michael Richardson via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Signed PGP part
>
> Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Hmmmm….. is ground station positioning more about geographic topology
> or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to manage
> subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher capacity
> ground stations than by distributing ground stations.
>
>
> Until they have satellite to satellite routing, the ground stations have to
> be "near" the users that they serve.
>
> My understanding from this list is that's why they couldn't easily help
> Tongo: it
> was all just ocean "nearby" (and why they can help Ukraine)
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Mike Puchol]

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Starlink also provides service to McMurdo Station, which is only possible over ISL on the polar shell satellites, which are still being positioned:

https://techcrunch.com/2022/09/14/spacex-satellite-internet-starlink-comes-to-antarctica/

Best,

Mike
On Sep 30, 2022, 19:26 +0200, Nathan Owens via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
> They intend to cover the whole ocean between ~-57 and 57 N by the end of 2022: https://api.starlink.com/public-files/maritime-coverage-map.pdf
>
> Per the posts I linked, the lasers are seemingly already working and covering some areas.
>
> > On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 10:24 AM Eugene Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > Ow… the implications on no satellite to satellite routing is all traffic is one-hop. That puts limits on big patches of the Pacific Basin. (And not a solution for trans-pacific aircraft.)
> > >
> > > Any clues how far apart are the ground stations? That is a lot of ground stations. This makes me reconsider (terrestrial) fixed-wireless as an alternative.
> > >
> > > Gene
> > > -----------------------------------
> > > Eugene Chang
> > > eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
> > > +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Sep 30, 2022, at 2:38 AM, Michael Richardson via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Signed PGP part
> > > >
> > > > Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > > > Hmmmm….. is ground station positioning more about geographic topology
> > > > > or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to manage
> > > > > subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher capacity
> > > > > ground stations than by distributing ground stations.
> > > >
> > > > Until they have satellite to satellite routing, the ground stations have to
> > > > be "near" the users that they serve.
> > > >
> > > > My understanding from this list is that's why they couldn't easily help Tongo: it
> > > > was all just ocean "nearby" (and why they can help Ukraine)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Starlink mailing list
> > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[Eugene Chang]

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Thanks…. Very cool

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)





> On Sep 30, 2022, at 11:39 AM, rob currie via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Eugene,
> You were wondering about ground stations. Perhaps this site will be instructive as it purports to be real time. And it looks cool.
> 
> https://starlink.sx/ <https://starlink.sx/>
> 
> Zoom in to a location and set it as ‘home’ aas per the on screen instructions. then it shows that cell and vicinity.
> 
> Rob
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


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Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering

[rob currie]

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Eugene,
You were wondering about ground stations. Perhaps this site will be instructive as it purports to be real time. And it looks cool.

https://starlink.sx/

Zoom in to a location and set it as ‘home’ aas per the on screen instructions. then it shows that cell and vicinity. 

Rob

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