[Starlink] Re: Starlink Digest, Vol 55, Issue 3

[Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>]

> On 8. Nov 2025, at 18:30, J Pan via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> yes, end-to-end congestion control was an add-on to tcp flow and error
> control, and at that time, packet loss was the only reliable
> congestion signal

And it still is, when push comes to shove all an over-congested router can do to shovel itself out of an overload is aggressively dropping packets. So this still is a valid signal a rate controller should respect... I am not sure BBR's cavalier approach to loss is actually a good thing for the internet.

> without router collaboration, and the  legacy stays.

See above, because in the extreme it is still an important observable, no?

> from the experience of tuning tcp on cellular networks, making the
> link layer more reliable is "the way", at the cost of more buffers and
> latency. but now physical, link and network layer have more info for
> the transport layer to make the right decision, e.g., starlink
> handovers at 12th, 27th, 42nd and 57th second of every minute with
> delay spike and losses

It is one thing knowing that starlink has these 15 seconds (and 4 seconds?) events but another one how to properly deal with them. 

> --
> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pan
> 
> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 2:51 PM David Fernández via Starlink
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for sharing this Frank.
>> 
>> In slide 3, I think that another effect not to be missed is packet losses
>> due to errors, which could be analogous to pipe leaks. Sometimes, it
>> happens that they are not negligible, in some cases with wireless links,
>> mainly, but it could happen too in DSL. I remember that I had a DSL line in
>> which the router had the option to disable interleaving, warning that you
>> could get more errors, bad for watching video, they were saying, but
>> reduced latency (good for videogames). When packet losses due to errors are
>> misinterpreted as congestion by the transport protocols, the result is also
>> a band quality of experience.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> David
>> 
>> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 11:53:44 +0100
>>> From: Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [Starlink] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is
>>>        A Lie!  at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16)
>>> To: Cake List <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat
>>>        <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>,        codel@lists.bufferbloat.net,
>>>        Jeremy Austin via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, libreqos
>>>        <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>,   Dave Taht via Starlink
>>>        <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, l4s-discuss@ietf.org
>>> Message-ID:
>>>        <CAJUtOOhzJAymDiKsnRPho80B8GZ4wzd8W7FWccS=
>>> uhiQPd3KOg@mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>> 
>>> Hello to all,
>>> 
>>> Recording of our QoE/QoS panel discussion is out! It was really great and
>>> believe you will like it:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1VET0VYQ6c
>>> 
>>> We have touch bandwidth, L4S, Starlink and more.
>>> 
>>> Here are the slides with additional reading:
>>> 
>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ML0I3Av3DCtQDiP8Djr_YGH2r4-UDZP25VEk-xyJcZE/edit?slide=id.p#slide=id.p
>>> 
>>> We hope to continue this conversation into more practical, demo-like
>>> environment of sort, that we can see at IETF Hackathon and used to see in
>>> the early WISPA event days, with Animal Farm.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> All the best,
>>> 
>>> Frank
>>> 
>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>>> 
>>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>> 
>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>> 
>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>> 
>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>> 
>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 11:32 PM Frantisek Borsik <
>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Let's say that I love it, channeling my inner Dave Taht. But there were a
>>>> couple of voices asking if I won't consider to change it a bit, to be
>>> "less
>>>> hostile" to our "bandwidth is king!" friends...and I was trying, but this
>>>> was really sticky and I'm happy that it stayed this way.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> All the best,
>>>> 
>>>> Frank
>>>> 
>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>>>> 
>>>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>> 
>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>>> 
>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>>> 
>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>> 
>>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 9:25 PM dan <dandenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I actually really like the title ;)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's that most of the time people are told they need more bandwidth to
>>>>> solve a problem, when they really need lower latency and jitter.  So the
>>>>> vast majority of the time 'more bandwidth' as a solution really is a
>>> lie.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 2:47 PM Frantisek Borsik via LibreQoS <
>>>>> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks, Jim. Well, true that - but I wanted to do it either way,
>>> because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> our dear Dave and - as a conversation starter.
>>>>>> As @Jason Livingood <jason_livingood@comcast.com> said - "Bandwidth is
>>>>>> dead. Long live latency."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>> https://pulse.internetsociety.org/blog/bandwidth-is-dead-long-live-latency
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I will do my best to get the audio/video right and to share it with you
>>>>>> all.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> PS: Sending you separate email.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 10:25 PM James Forster <
>>> jim@connectivitycap.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Wow, that’s fantastic, Frantisek!  Great work making this happen.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> These sort of titles aren’t my favorite. I think I understand the
>>>>>>> sentiment but find the issues more nuanced than that. :-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you can get clear audio, not much quality is needed for panels and
>>>>>>> talking beads.   Best would be a feed right into an iPhone/android.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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