From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0FB3936221 for ; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 20:29:47 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1762630182; x=1763234982; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=EXIId6Cs9XhOvAMA3UdX2QhMxGgSXsmoKsAMRUUcWxU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=KacbWxVyDvkp01rjIH10h016j/IeGNlPLKC6/vWurj+fTCnqWQJAVsd89lL+K4nr viu8L8I4cLeTqLyJ2tniQ2Mqc+r0gO0viB598soFLOuKBpqSAbFcbQGr3p6OWtksE iGRnhIK3/EN7gxSzn2S6czFV5dQVwtTKzOo/9TXFxOiiQaQYBy+gKlYurStFuuFz8 c/ZY+d0R5dqm76fabsLXa5TeSHqcq8aMYbUzSLGci8AohjFlpIa8g5l1jbp1wBFSj /xf8IvwWJ2hl81NIQ7tIZ52up+rfQPBSW7CnEqdxhiUsbA/2BMbiJwTueKcCTPC4j vp3jGl3qs5DaDLxOMQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.119.152.106]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M72oB-1vI4Hh0u9H-00DL3a; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 20:29:42 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81.1.3\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2025 20:29:31 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <176254173597.1347.15997824594759319437@gauss> To: J Pan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81.1.3) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:W2OKwPlo1uSxvcqph8lEK3KwbgXPkEUmZGXpHLus+81DTSfUWbG 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implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink Digest, Vol 55, Issue 3 List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 8. Nov 2025, at 18:30, J Pan via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > yes, end-to-end congestion control was an add-on to tcp flow and error > control, and at that time, packet loss was the only reliable > congestion signal And it still is, when push comes to shove all an over-congested router = can do to shovel itself out of an overload is aggressively dropping = packets. So this still is a valid signal a rate controller should = respect... I am not sure BBR's cavalier approach to loss is actually a = good thing for the internet. > without router collaboration, and the legacy stays. See above, because in the extreme it is still an important observable, = no? > from the experience of tuning tcp on cellular networks, making the > link layer more reliable is "the way", at the cost of more buffers and > latency. but now physical, link and network layer have more info for > the transport layer to make the right decision, e.g., starlink > handovers at 12th, 27th, 42nd and 57th second of every minute with > delay spike and losses It is one thing knowing that starlink has these 15 seconds (and 4 = seconds?) events but another one how to properly deal with them.=20 > -- > J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, = Web.UVic.CA/~pan >=20 > On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 2:51=E2=80=AFPM David Fern=C3=A1ndez via = Starlink > wrote: >>=20 >> Thanks for sharing this Frank. >>=20 >> In slide 3, I think that another effect not to be missed is packet = losses >> due to errors, which could be analogous to pipe leaks. Sometimes, it >> happens that they are not negligible, in some cases with wireless = links, >> mainly, but it could happen too in DSL. I remember that I had a DSL = line in >> which the router had the option to disable interleaving, warning that = you >> could get more errors, bad for watching video, they were saying, but >> reduced latency (good for videogames). When packet losses due to = errors are >> misinterpreted as congestion by the transport protocols, the result = is also >> a band quality of experience. >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> David >>=20 >> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 11:53:44 +0100 >>> From: Frantisek Borsik >>> Subject: [Starlink] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth = Is >>> A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) >>> To: Cake List , bloat >>> , = codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, >>> Jeremy Austin via Rpm , libreqos >>> , Dave Taht via Starlink >>> , l4s-discuss@ietf.org >>> Message-ID: >>> >> uhiQPd3KOg@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" >>>=20 >>> Hello to all, >>>=20 >>> Recording of our QoE/QoS panel discussion is out! It was really = great and >>> believe you will like it: >>>=20 >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DT1VET0VYQ6c >>>=20 >>> We have touch bandwidth, L4S, Starlink and more. >>>=20 >>> Here are the slides with additional reading: >>>=20 >>> = https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ML0I3Av3DCtQDiP8Djr_YGH2r4-UDZP25V= Ek-xyJcZE/edit?slide=3Did.p#slide=3Did.p >>>=20 >>> We hope to continue this conversation into more practical, demo-like >>> environment of sort, that we can see at IETF Hackathon and used to = see in >>> the early WISPA event days, with Animal Farm. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> All the best, >>>=20 >>> Frank >>>=20 >>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 >>>=20 >>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >>>=20 >>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >>>=20 >>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >>>=20 >>> Skype: casioa5302ca >>>=20 >>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 11:32=E2=80=AFPM Frantisek Borsik < >>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Let's say that I love it, channeling my inner Dave Taht. But there = were a >>>> couple of voices asking if I won't consider to change it a bit, to = be >>> "less >>>> hostile" to our "bandwidth is king!" friends...and I was trying, = but this >>>> was really sticky and I'm happy that it stayed this way. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> All the best, >>>>=20 >>>> Frank >>>>=20 >>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 >>>>=20 >>>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >>>>=20 >>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >>>>=20 >>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >>>>=20 >>>> Skype: casioa5302ca >>>>=20 >>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 9:25=E2=80=AFPM dan = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> I actually really like the title ;) >>>>>=20 >>>>> It's that most of the time people are told they need more = bandwidth to >>>>> solve a problem, when they really need lower latency and jitter. = So the >>>>> vast majority of the time 'more bandwidth' as a solution really is = a >>> lie. >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 2:47=E2=80=AFPM Frantisek Borsik via = LibreQoS < >>>>> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks, Jim. Well, true that - but I wanted to do it either way, >>> because >>>>>> of >>>>>> our dear Dave and - as a conversation starter. >>>>>> As @Jason Livingood said - = "Bandwidth is >>>>>> dead. Long live latency." >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>> = https://pulse.internetsociety.org/blog/bandwidth-is-dead-long-live-latency= >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I will do my best to get the audio/video right and to share it = with you >>>>>> all. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> PS: Sending you separate email. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Frank >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 10:25=E2=80=AFPM James Forster < >>> jim@connectivitycap.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Wow, that=E2=80=99s fantastic, Frantisek! Great work making = this happen. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> These sort of titles aren=E2=80=99t my favorite. I think I = understand the >>>>>>> sentiment but find the issues more nuanced than that. :-) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> If you can get clear audio, not much quality is needed for = panels and >>>>>>> talking beads. Best would be a feed right into an = iPhone/android. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Jim >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> LibreQoS mailing list -- libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to = libreqos-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net