From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.taht.net (mail.taht.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2d4:f00f:f00f:b33b:b33b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 027C33B2A4 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 2021 05:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (mobile-166-170-40-231.mycingular.net [166.170.40.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.taht.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE0EF221D8; Wed, 9 Jun 2021 09:12:23 +0000 (UTC) From: Dave Taht Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7F6F775C-DAE2-45FB-AD52-71437E6D0F38" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 02:12:21 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Darrell Budic , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net To: Nathan Owens References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Subject: [Starlink] dynamically adjusting cake to starlink X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:12:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7F6F775C-DAE2-45FB-AD52-71437E6D0F38 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dear Mike: The biggest thing we need is something that can pull the right stats off = the dishy and dynamically adjust cake (on outbound at least) to have the = right amount of buffering for the available bandwidth, so as to make for = better statistical multiplexing (FQ) and active queue management (AQM) It=E2=80=99s pretty simple: in mangled shell script syntax: while up, down =3D getstats() do tc qdisc change dev eth0 root cake bandwidth $up tc qdisc change dev ifb0 root cake bandwidth $down done =20 Which any router directly in front of the dishy can do (which is what = we=E2=80=99ve been doing) But whatever magic =E2=80=9Cgetstats()=E2=80=9D would need to do is = unclear from the stats we get out of it, and a better alternative would = be for the dishy itself and their headends to be doing this with =E2=80=9C= BQL" backpressure. As for the huge reductions of latency and jitter under working load, and = a vast improvement in QoE - for what we=E2=80=99ve been able to achieve = thus far, see appendix A here: = https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rVGC-iNq2NZ0jk4f3IAiVUHz2S9O6P-F3vVZU2= yBYtw/edit?usp=3Dsharing We=E2=80=99ve got plenty more data=20 on uploads and downloads and other forms of traffic (starlink is = optimizing for ping, only, over ipv6. Sigh)=E2=80=A6 =E2=80=A6 and a meeting with some starlink execs at 11AM today.=20 I=E2=80=99m pretty sure at this point we will be able to make a massive = improvement in starlink=E2=80=99s network design very quickly, after = that meeting.=20 > On Jun 8, 2021, at 2:54 PM, Nathan Owens wrote: >=20 > I invited Mike, the creator of the site (starlink.sx = ) to join the list - he=E2=80=99s put a crazy = amount of work in to figure out which sats are active (with advice from = Jonathan McDowell), programming GSO exclusion bands, etc. His dayjob is = in the ISP business.=20 >=20 > On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:31 PM Darrell Budic > wrote: > https://starlink.sx if you have=E2=80=99t seen = it yet. You can locate yourself, and it will make some educated guesses = about which satellite to which ground station you=E2=80=99re using. = Interesting to see the birds change and the links move between ground = stations, lots going on to make these things work. > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_7F6F775C-DAE2-45FB-AD52-71437E6D0F38 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dear = Mike:

The biggest = thing we need is something that can pull the right stats off the dishy = and dynamically adjust cake (on outbound at least) to have the right = amount of buffering for the available bandwidth, so as to make for = better statistical multiplexing (FQ) and active queue management = (AQM)

It=E2=80=99s = pretty simple: in mangled shell script syntax:

while up, down =3D getstats()
do
tc qdisc change dev eth0 root cake = bandwidth $up
tc qdisc change dev ifb0 root cake = bandwidth $down
done
 
Which any router directly in = front of the dishy can do (which is what we=E2=80=99ve been = doing)

But = whatever magic =E2=80=9Cgetstats()=E2=80=9D would need to do is unclear = from the stats we get out of it, and a better alternative would be for = the dishy itself and their headends to be doing this with =E2=80=9CBQL" = backpressure.

As= for the huge reductions of latency and jitter under working load, and a = vast improvement in QoE - for what we=E2=80=99ve been able to achieve = thus far, see appendix A here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rVGC-iNq2NZ0jk4f3IAiVUHz2S9= O6P-F3vVZU2yBYtw/edit?usp=3Dsharing

We=E2=80=99ve got plenty more = data 
on uploads and downloads and other forms = of traffic (starlink is optimizing for ping, only, over ipv6. = Sigh)=E2=80=A6

=E2=80=A6 and a meeting with some starlink execs at 11AM = today. 

I=E2=80=99m pretty sure at this point we will be able to make = a massive improvement in starlink=E2=80=99s network design very quickly, = after that meeting. 

On Jun 8, 2021, at 2:54 PM, = Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> wrote:

I invited Mike, the creator of = the site (starlink.sx) to = join the list - he=E2=80=99s put a crazy amount of work in to figure out = which sats are active (with advice from Jonathan McDowell), programming = GSO exclusion bands, etc. His dayjob is in the ISP business.

On Sat, Jun = 5, 2021 at 8:31 PM Darrell Budic <budic@onholyground.com> wrote:
https://starlink.sx if you have=E2=80=99t seen it = yet. You can locate yourself, and it will make some educated guesses = about which satellite to which ground station you=E2=80=99re using. = Interesting to see the birds change and the links move between ground = stations, lots going on to make these things = work.
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Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
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Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

= --Apple-Mail=_7F6F775C-DAE2-45FB-AD52-71437E6D0F38--