From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=s31663417 header.b=lPmCuhcm; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31C4D199F1AF; Wed, 04 Nov 2026 18:03:57 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1793811790; x=1794416590; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=KQdToxBxxamvxr5kC71N/vZOKZuTldN5pkxJBpf9iGY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=lPmCuhcmh9hJ7ksBTYC7OAm/PTLSJy2NHkwY1IQQcTp33+I0f2+6fTswSOju/UEZ 5LEZHgQntutvw8djozQGSzSUl2oJRxSZoyd9YXKDLadxBnCQbuEMHBWvy3aJ3OvL9 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ImA4mK7kJkx+gwlAL4zmQ4jEc4YY6H1x7avwFWvDHA+UdSlKnQ2Ot566SWqRzcwuFacZO7a+H ocbtfoKoiSMCQZhuLV65474AX9lKkw= Message-ID-Hash: BXHXESBYYSKSSKXWE5S4LNMGUVHZPL72 X-Message-ID-Hash: BXHXESBYYSKSSKXWE5S4LNMGUVHZPL72 X-MailFrom: moeller0@gmx.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: [NNagain] [Bloat] The French have decided to destroy the Internet within their own country by taxing Gigabits (Dr. Peering) List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Sascha, On November 4, 2026 5:20:01 PM GMT+01:00, Sascha Meinrath wrote: >Hi Sebastian, > >My point is that if I VPNed to a point outside France, then a French ISP = would have no way to know that I've accessed the type of media that should = be taxed=2E A misunderstanding, the amendment prposes to tax every single bit independ= ent of the source=2E=2E=2E it makes zero exemptions, not for FOSS, not for = non commercially ial entities=2E Sure the motivation is to tax big tech pri= marily, but the current (half-baked) legal implementation is not differenti= ating=2E=2E=2E > In essence, VPNs (and proxy services) would create extraordinary problem= s for even instrumenting the proposed taxing regime=2E How? Like with a CDN the tax would hit the vpn provider=2E=2E=2E the ASN o= f the source IP=2E=2E=2E=2E > >--Sascha > >On 11/4/26 10:40 AM, Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> Hi Sascha, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Nov 2, 2026, at 15:30, Sascha Meinrath wrote= : >>>=20 >>> I can't wait until the French Parliament learns about VPNs=2E=2E=2E It= would be absolutely *wonderful* if all the ISPs passed along the tax to th= eir customers=2E=2E=2E and then taught all their customers that VPNed traff= ic would, for obvious reasons, be exempted=2E >>=20 >> Not how this is supposed to work: the ISP aggregates its end-customer b= ound traffic volume by ASN and reports these aggregates quarterly, the tax = office sends the ASNs the tax bill=2E VPN does not really matter, except no= w it is the VPN provider that is on the hook for the money=2E The amendment= does not address VPNs but for CDNs that are in a similar picckle the idea = is that CDN operators either pass on the cost or "eat" it themselves (both = half-baked ideas)=2E The only oddity VPNs add is that they typically receiv= e no money from the actual content providers, but the end users=2E >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I find proposals like this to be absolutely idiotic -- and, they are y= et another step in the global data obfuscation arms race=2E >>=20 >> Oh, that proposal is pretty half-baked, no arggument there, but I think= we differ in which of its half-baked-ness we consider worst ;) >>=20 >>>=20 >>> #encrypteverything >>=20 >> Well, if you look what this is supposed to operate on encryption is not= really an option, as this operates on source and destination IP addresses,= that are somewhat prickly to encrypt if you want packets delivered=2E=2E= =2E >>=20 >>>=20 >>> --Sascha >>>=20 >>> On 11/2/26 6:23 AM, Sebastian Moeller via Nnagain wrote: >>>> Hi Michael, >>>>> On Nov 2, 2026, at 08:44, Michael Welzl wro= te: >>>>>=20 >>>>> The tax is 5 cents per Gigabyte=2E This is insane=2E >>>> Back of the envelop calculations for video streaming (assuming this t= o be the one category driving most of the sustained capacity usage): >>>> common use seems to be HD streaming (say on average at 5 Mbps), with = say 2 hours per day, 7 days per week: >>>> (5 * 1000^2) * (60 * 60 * 2 * 30) / (8 * 1000^3) =3D 135 GB >>>> -> 135 * 0=2E055 =3D 7=2E425 Euro/month >>>> typical cost for midrange (ad-free) video streaming in france: 8-15 = Euro >>>> depending on the reference contract tier, the tax almost as large as = the total revenue, no way this could be priced-in without significant price= increases=2E >>>> The proposed tax indeed seems quite steep, however it is capped at 15= % of revenue in france or 2% of world-wide revenue >>>> So that would get this more in like with a 15% tax=2E=2E=2E on revenu= e, still nothing to sneeze at, but a far cry from the numbers one gets when= simply multiplying=2E=2E=2E >>>> Regards >>>> Sebastian >>>> P=2ES=2E: My take this is half-baked and will not make it through the= further legislative process in that form=2E >>>>> It goes against how we agree to use the Internet=2E >>>>>=20 >>>>> English version: >>>>> "France has recently approved a highly controversial "Internet Traff= ic >>>>> Tax" (or Gigabyte Tax) as part of the 2027 budget bill amendments=2E= The >>>>> new levy targets digital content providers based on the volume of da= ta >>>>> they transmit to French internet users, which is monitored by networ= k >>>>> operators and Internet Service Providers (ISPs) heavily utilizing >>>>> Internet Exchange Points like France-IX=2E" >>>>>=20 >>>>> Google AI summary: >>>>> "Key Metrics & Tax Rates >>>>> =E2=80=A2 =E2=82=AC0=2E055 per gigabyte charged to content providers= =2E >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Capped at 15% of a provider's French revenue=2E >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Capped at 2% of a provider's global revenue=2E >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Measured directly by French network operators and ISPs=2E" >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 2026-10-31 13:56, Frantisek Borsik wrote: >>>>>> Crossposting, because this garbage idea might "inspire" more countr= ies >>>>>> and >>>>>> have a horrible impact also on bufferbloat everywhere=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> *Original post by Dr=2E Peering:* >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> *"The French have decided to destroy the Internet within their own >>>>>> country >>>>>> by taxing Gigabits=2E Here=E2=80=99s Octave Klaba's excellent analy= sis [in >>>>>> French, >>>>>> link below] showing just how insane the finance bill actually is=2E= The >>>>>> IXP >>>>>> taxation amount is, just for starters, ridiculous!"* >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> https://x=2Ecom/drpeering/status/2116468659392807 >>>>>> >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> *Octave's post:* >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> https://fr=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/posts/octave-klaba-3a0b3632_jai-lu-lame= ndement-i-1358-au-plf-2027-activity-7522219045576888320-uqkw >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> *Copy+paste:* >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> J'ai lu l'amendement I-1358 au PLF 2027, adopt=C3=A9 ce vendredi = =C3=A0 >>>>>> l'Assembl=C3=A9e : >>>>>> une taxe de 0,055 =E2=82=AC par Go envoy=C3=A9 vers les abonn=C3=A9= s des FAI fran=C3=A7ais=2E Le >>>>>> chiffre est abstrait, alors comparons-le=2E Corrigez-moi si vous vo= yez >>>>>> des >>>>>> erreurs=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Deux comparaisons et un cas concret : >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 1=2E Le transit et le peering=2E Un port 100 Gbps co=C3=BBte enviro= n 6 300 =E2=82=AC par >>>>>> mois chez un fournisseur de transit mondial=2E En interconnexion di= recte >>>>>> avec >>>>>> un FAI europ=C3=A9en, compter 3 =C3=A0 5 fois plus, soit 20 =C3=A0 = 30 k=E2=82=AC par mois=2E Sur >>>>>> ce >>>>>> port (a), la taxe atteint 1,02 M=E2=82=AC par mois, soit environ 34= 00 % =C3=A0 16300 >>>>>> % >>>>>> du prix d'une interconnexion vers les FAI fran=C3=A7ais=2E On chang= e donc >>>>>> profond=C3=A9ment le mod=C3=A8le =C3=A9conomique de la bande passan= te en France=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 2=2E Les hyperscalers sont critiqu=C3=A9s pour le prix de leur traf= ic sortant, >>>>>> qui >>>>>> va d'environ 0,08=E2=82=AC =C3=A0 0,045=E2=82=AC par Go selon le vo= lume=2E La taxe, 0,055 =E2=82=AC >>>>>> par >>>>>> Go, repr=C3=A9sente 68 % =C3=A0 123 % de ce prix=2E On parle donc d= e doubler, pour >>>>>> le >>>>>> trafic vers la France, un prix d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 jug=C3=A9 trop =C3=A9= lev=C3=A9 ! >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 3=2E Le cas d'OVHcloud=2E Nous envoyons de l'ordre de 500 Gbps au 9= 5e >>>>>> percentile vers les FAI fran=C3=A7ais, soit environ 324 Gbps en moy= enne=2E Sur >>>>>> un >>>>>> an, la taxe brute atteindrait 70 M=E2=82=AC=2E Le texte la plafonne= =C3=A0 15 % du CA >>>>>> r=C3=A9alis=C3=A9 en France ou =C3=A0 2 % du CA mondial, soit entre= environ 23 et 70 >>>>>> M=E2=82=AC >>>>>> par an que nous devrions collecter pour l'=C3=89tat, et donc r=C3= =A9percuter sur >>>>>> nos >>>>>> clients=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Conclusions : >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 1=2E Une taxe porte en g=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral sur une petite fraction de= son assiette=2E >>>>>> Celle-ci vaut plus de 3000 % du co=C3=BBt du transit, et environ 10= 0 % du >>>>>> prix >>>>>> public des hyperscalers=2E Rappelez-vous la loi SREN, vot=C3=A9e po= ur >>>>>> supprimer >>>>>> les frais de transfert qui emp=C3=AAchaient les clients de quitter = un >>>>>> fournisseur cloud=2E Ici, on parle de doubler le prix du trafic sor= tant >>>>>> vers >>>>>> les internautes fran=C3=A7ais, un prix d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 tr=C3=A8s pro= bl=C3=A9matique=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 2=2E Le garde-fou, un plafond calcul=C3=A9 sur le chiffre d'affaire= s, est >>>>>> incoh=C3=A9rent=2E Ce chiffre d'affaires couvre des serveurs, du st= ockage, des >>>>>> datacenters et des =C3=A9quipes sans rapport avec la bande passante= =2E C'est >>>>>> comme >>>>>> cr=C3=A9er une taxe calcul=C3=A9e sur la consommation =C3=A9lectriq= ue des usines >>>>>> automobiles en France, plafonn=C3=A9e =C3=A0 15 % du chiffre d'affa= ires des >>>>>> constructeurs=2E Quel rapport entre les deux ? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> 3=2E Une taxe nationale de ce type frappe =C3=A0 coup s=C3=BBr les = entreprises >>>>>> =C3=A9tablies >>>>>> en France, alors que leurs concurrents mondiaux sans pr=C3=A9sence = en France >>>>>> livrent le m=C3=AAme trafic aux m=C3=AAmes FAI fran=C3=A7ais sans p= ayer cette taxe en >>>>>> pratique=2E Cela cr=C3=A9e une distorsion de concurrence au d=C3=A9= triment des >>>>>> acteurs >>>>>> nationaux et d=C3=A9classe les entreprises qui embauchent en France= =2E Une >>>>>> taxe >>>>>> qui produit l'effet inverse serait une meilleure approche=2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> (a) Factur=C3=A9 au 95e percentile, ce port n'est pas plein en perm= anence : >>>>>> avec >>>>>> un profil journalier type (22 % vers 4 h, 90 % vers 21 h), il >>>>>> transporte en >>>>>> moyenne 57 % de sa capacit=C3=A9, soit 18,6 millions de Go par mois= =2E >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Frank >>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: 1965-2025 >>>>>> https://libreqos=2Eio/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> https://www=2Elinkedin=2Ecom/in/frantisekborsik >>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714> >>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <775%20230%20885> >>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca >>>>>> frantisek=2Eborsik@gmail=2Ecom >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to bloat-leave@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2En= et >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to bloat-leave@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Ene= t >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Bloat mailing list -- bloat@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to bloat-leave@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Ene= t >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nnagain mailing list -- nnagain@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to nnagain-leave@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2En= et >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Sascha Meinrath >>> Director, X-Lab >>> Palmer Chair in Telecommunications >>> Penn State University >>=20 >>=20 > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E