From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9315F3B29D; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:43:29 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1678653807; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=TN3qn9tuTiNRHOl3PT+mXfJLIgYD2G8V/9KRAfw7fw4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=bu4lL7uQrFDOIuhgjXU34TRaCchxqTFnExmeXrHzXQCqa5Blm+EpQc+l6LB2/8MtW OTBjU/JE53AsOCxXur0HN81nK+EiG3sinIBWvzgsnvY6g71k+JQj8JFI/d44kbeC5L Kb4Tf5Z9Nmx4u4DLbO2Q4BhGWfNTkBMCnRuz70D2dEJQ2WJyeDfAVRYklOcwUEsDqa ZFsRFHA06wuRgC+CtkyGKcJ9pKvUYxFDnUNENFJftyiFCuBujBByJV7ug6vmul2Stz s4X54+32V64rDU7muXAJdWcnTjI48v6aHnM+U87fwFyqxCmbz8VyLtO1TDg28catw+ BYePYR1DRwSUA== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.8.69.99]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N33Ib-1qYCHa2FeH-013PUe; Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:43:27 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 21:43:26 +0100 Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , bloat , Cake List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Fq7AQ1flqstOJBhRk9PWNRqkxH9nX45bOEDS39nDRDnqCxbWry1 AalEeCpXs6nlewi7qRpLM6Z0Kqgcbw5Im2yq4t4C0SbwFgZDO4LclLjeoytko772dijSAy4 sWVhXF1HnbqJF/2/oaQ14u6PML9OoReYxRNFI1XEFkYavhlOxNZcoNrcod74NINJr95Cyeo ZNqu7AtfNfGADqblDEZDA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:JYkXAbx1vJw=;sasVNgwjXA9W0ZnseWBFSVVS+r1 LBwIdUCNyCm85uxmE6CVMxSpr7l4mVNCSyhBleDPcLS0O4krBYRhn/LjO6RJBk0TM3CtM6a4m YyzU4CS4W0VDuhquo1CMvSavlfcLZWUhzcGCkIzbQIsLMELNv5VLQjFP6St8Dz2gETB34vjVO hqQ5MZsnhUN3PyPKznSHGVtWH57UuszUrfr2DoYHrGJn5VYIUd9T697xKoIJS7Do2Cf95IhI7 zuhcE36Jdw2P1oB9EEvvTpHQDrrNbTJOptIiQ1BVPbdCtzBJ4N8bN1TApdZ7I7FgUPwn45pwZ tipMPMFULiSgL9Tm7rsY7blKayHLpRnCY98w34+1iotfIm55tC7nJv5tFDNRgBhHzvvsrVIV6 /cy3XPa4KF+0VwdlsNRCigvha5RnitQt3sbiuKNCeV4dtuLAlLgMxdMPxRbr/te2ShSzotwuW WbgRWpabIpv4f+k3Y2vxN30bpWFGh8rq3/5By4JTpxs/JCcY1wFZIXfjBuq42OuRvNrMKlgkj vE0fE05aIVOoxvJYZlUQUt8Ap0y6knbrxwJ6WaRKq/bWwzFGt7c5DVGvUg4d1BJFD/DVQAXsS 40puekGlba5q900niHPb+VicOjCbNZdlctss8AIy2/ADG35QV9SWwPFQSoEe7c9DRSCwL7TYN dkvFQyV/r4DW50+fGT6hwwUVqI6TxFcrznOtbx6fRwjausAGY4kc0KledY/lr5jWAfEzCyI6Q SlExofsfo+8DrnDk7VbTCFx53Br0wGeX0WQ+RrAaejD67YUkIO21bES0+6E/67prQfCvAGbOm 0fddA171jBiKilTvONWQopid9Z3xep/W/yNqFnd8cYzQAo8c3QiLSdTM+OJJf2//O9KF163AP MVEc2aIpXt98JmvOLejPQRATKat5NnUCtgnMcNVKDZqlrcOob3BgEHiv3YZFa16kJEvy+uzQ7 Lby5Vw== Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] so great to see ISPs that care X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2023 20:43:30 -0000 Dave, your presentation was awesome, I fully agree with you ;). I very much = liked your practical funnel demonstration which was boiled down to the = bare minimum (I only partly asked myself, will the liquid spill in in = your laptops keyboard, and if so is it water-proof, but you clearly had = rehearsed/tried that before). BTW, I always have to think of this = h++ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DR7yfISlGLNU somehow when you present = live from the marina ;) I am still not through watching all of the presentations and panels, but = can already say, team L4S continues to over-promise and under-deliver, = but Koen's presentation itself was done well and might (sadly) convince = people to buy-in into L4(S) =3D 2L2L =3D too little, too late. Stuart's RPM presentation was great, making a convincing point. (Except = for pitching L4S and LLD as "solutions", I will accept them as a step in = the right direction, but why not go in all the way and embrace proper = scheduling?) In detail though, I am not fully convinced about the decision of taking = the inverse of delay increase as singular measure here as I consider = that as a bit of a squandered opportunity at public outreach/education = and as comparing idle and working RPM is non-intuitive, while idle and = working RTT can immediately subtracted to see the extent of the queueing = damage in actionable terms.=20 Try the same with RPM values: 123-1234567:~ user$ networkQuality -v =3D=3D=3D=3D SUMMARY =3D=3D=3D=3D = =20 Upload capacity: 22.208 Mbps Download capacity: 88.054 Mbps Upload flows: 12 Download flows: 12 Responsiveness: High (2622 RPM) Base RTT: 18 Start: 3/12/23, 21:00:58 End: 3/12/23, 21:01:08 OS Version: Version 12.6.3 (Build 21G419) here we can divide 60 [sec/minute] * 1000 [ms/sec] by the RPM [1/min] to = get: 60000/2622 =3D 22.88 ms loaded delay and subtract the base RTT of = 18 for 60000/2622 - 18 =3D 4.88 ~5ms of loaded delay which is a useful = quantity when managing a delay budget (this test was performed over = wired ethernet with competent AQM and traffic shaping on the link, so no = surprise about the outcome there). Let's look at the reverse and convert = the base RTT into a base RPM score instead: 6000/18 =3D 333 rpm, what = exactly does the delta RPM of 2622-333 =3D 2289rpm now tell us about the = difference between idle and working conditions? [Well, since conversion = is not witchcraft, I will be fine as will other interested in actual = evoked delay, but we could have gotten a better measure*] And all for the somewhat unhelpful car analogy... (it is not that for = internal combustion engines bigger is necessarily better for RPM, either = for torque or fuel efficiency). I guess that ship has sailed though and RPM it is *) Stuart notes that milliseconds and Hertz sound to sciency, but they = could simply have given the delay increase in milliseconds a fancier = name to solve that specific problem...=20 > On Mar 12, 2023, at 20:31, Dave Taht via Rpm = wrote: >=20 > = https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeNetworking/comments/11pmc9a/comment/jbypj0z/?= context=3D3 >=20 > --=20 > Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Rpm mailing list > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm