From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from relay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0012.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B85283B2A4 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 2023 10:46:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from omf14.hostedemail.com (a10.router.float.18 [10.200.18.1]) by unirelay09.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8D280A98; Mon, 9 Jan 2023 15:46:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [HIDDEN] (Authenticated sender: doc@searls.com) by omf14.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 991F32D; Mon, 9 Jan 2023 15:46:01 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Doc Searls In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2023 07:45:59 -0800 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= , "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "Livingood, Jason" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 991F32D X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.39 X-Rspamd-Server: rspamout03 X-Stat-Signature: emg3w534mxbgo74374nyaw8efba68ofk X-Session-Marker: 646F6340736561726C732E636F6D X-Session-ID: U2FsdGVkX19Lj9+HdAg+nLoWT3IrOZa82ceEV5wpiEk= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=searls.com; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=dkim1; bh=Vl26Bmn4mN1rJg4e8vQqob/DhXNvBPcehp1FU+Ugw3E=; b=RxTplRSlrnEPEPNaSgVtMxib2EFk5a5GuNH4jgasQh1yanH+R/uWKVbhDhekXbx5POVN9XWwp+wAXZ2XYc4g9N/Fo0d3CJj06svQnU/7XsvMc8z6FrvA1bF7rquzucUJqLqHYfz9t3he55W/KqxiCMN8u6W3/5HsdEfg9KO333U= X-HE-Tag: 1673279161-435555 X-HE-Meta: U2FsdGVkX18qNkBq52ehGD9uI6vySelyIkr7QeO91mWyBEsSzgedmsbPxrb1bOpEme+5jgmPxhIue+l49pO+oA== Subject: Re: [Starlink] Researchers Seeking Probe Volunteers in USA X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 15:46:04 -0000 Experience is also based on expectation, and nearly all the ISPs = advertise downstream speed, and compete on that. This state of things = reminds me of the TV business in the 50s and 60s, when RCA, GE and = Zenith competed on picture size (21 inches was tops) more than picture = quality. (Sony changed the game with Trinitron in 1968.) So everybody = naturally assumes that the quality of their Internet service is almost = entirely a matter of downstream speed. While there is now a widespread understanding that fiber is best, some = ISPs talk a fiber game but actually do hybrid fiber coax, delivering = essentially coax's asymmetrical speeds. My sister has that with her = "fiber" AT&T service in North Carolina, and I have it here in Santa = Barbara with Cox.Neither are bad, but neither are FTTH. Until the ISPs begin to promote and compete on some kind of normative = metric for QoE (or other initialism), customers will continue to think = by default that downstream speed is the whole game. An interesting thing with Starlink is that people in rural areas = migrating off the likes of HughesNet care more about latency (or the = experience of its relative absence) than any other factor. Example: = https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/t5rx0s/switching_from_hughesnet= / Doc > On Jan 9, 2023, at 6:50 AM, Livingood, Jason via Starlink = wrote: >=20 >> AFAIK, quality of service (QoS) refers to network characteristics you > can measure quantitatively without human opinion being involved, i.e.: > throughput, latency and packet losses, also availability (MTBF/(MTBF + > MTTR)). Then, quality of experience (QoE) refers to what the users > experience, it is subjective, it must be done using subjects that are > not engineers or telecom technicians, and it is defined by the ITU as > the MOS (Mean Opinion Score), in Recommendation ITU-T P.800.1. >=20 > ISTM that everyone has a different view of QoS & QoE. My view is that = QoS refers to DSCP marking and such (so best effort, priority, less than = best effort, etc.) and/or some metric that the *network* is configured = to deliver. But...these are all proxies for end user QoE, which used to = be difficult to measure individually but is now easy/affordable to do at = scale. IMO all that really matters is the end user experience, and that = can be quantitatively measured (link capacity at peak hour, = responsiveness/working latency, uptime) and qualitatively measured. = After all, the end user does not care about what the network is in = theory configured to delivery but only their actual experience using the = Internet. __=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink