From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77CD13B29E for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 02:42:16 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1665902529; bh=DB6e2K8BluaCiZlkY3efMg28Rx//yUfBcpcRiqkIqIw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=JyJV3JPfRzOD2hoHTa7+hg6pVN+aPiTMDxT7t36qqRN69IVSsyPrgcRDtSza+4Bej pV2cKTY1PkzsLM5D/0br7++AtYwZOvIunyVwn4koJy/+XZP9ozsJf/drhSLdg1r5gj bSsd0wahGGaY2QAgAmXBcr6NrCHN+wdoJD6ml6z4= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([87.148.161.152]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N79uI-1pDZXB1loi-017V9T; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 08:42:09 +0200 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 08:42:05 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Larry Press , Larry Press via Starlink , David Lang CC: Starlink list User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <38522124-6d3b-4ac8-bb20-92bfa35dc9fe@Spark> <87tu46o8e3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3ea89257-d5f8-4fa9-a90a-c73d49d2a9e2@Spark> <87r0zao0f0.wl-jch@irif.fr> <398208s8-6080-r8q7-s6rs-q9np11428n3o@ynat.uz> <4rn1o59p-36nq-87q9-3n78-828r0qppp221@ynat.uz> <17p02r7n-931q-np8o-n4r5-554psr2n8o79@ynat.uz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----1DHCQ0RXOLT3WV0ZCL2UMBX6GKF76G Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:bCsGsfZWwB9U4tIvAdhmjs6J8TSRnMJxNfdHAGOZAvDpgt43w7C XQ8datlcR8jJYg5xXtp48rEAL08CjFACPK/RnPeyXupzpE4sb2O/8B2/mKCUZWxPHqop3pX cWnB1jN7/mEmC41DDAYPxEBT0BqP3cN4mR9u5KYmtGElCEJkGXX354bdqSWEB5X5xiKl3Vv lfzpVqd6aOaovHHziVdfw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:JG41bHlpjn0=:4ZQ3N00zylryav20LU70Md sQZzfmdGd7O9b7lTUlIHyGVeV5RlqD0HJnrKdyhQ01FP9prGVLrEEM9zeAZOft/LSMnharpz8 A0/S0rKlu+goX3Qq0SlT+1DvAHC5grEO1RG7EnSqD3aN9gI5pPYlJ96MLbHBmOJzvN/CC9bTQ 3FfRuRmOrocCjJVvWxx2QPrazSc2PGXUOJFz9lihsnD+DzFTS1irznk3Qe5FADKQAgoShH1Yn fP6UpK79aVCKSGW9SV5JyhaFhNtY7fyRU55VavS3U2MFPTy6cOAiV3hD5U6qCItByxdQ95hER oceuXc/NywnWhTwzTciWNN9SuAM13i34pWgwEtp1SOwI7LqofiDe8itPv2UZQiYseoJBoW0vh 33vy8Wkz+IYmYrBTUKokiIQldrvWaQdJUJMAAuwPTz0okKRtq10d429cwWV+7JwT5ziYx/7U7 FST93goCFNd4KLYyJX8JbQWQxmbezemLqEOejVfs2D8mHK81Wim2+Fl06Ra2M7zSqw2jG9L32 5sfe501W3QtaGdszsmp2hr8LSpXcm3coKqUjP1U85bURfCMntVIEwI/6kGCfrf0S0GjeYE09i xC/twsIBPx18m6N3CyN3zs7ETusi6P3kZrflMGrdtVbKuyohBOxEmQEhhRCZN+5wdzfmcbeG7 Mvp21B09KY8R/LgN/Wca356hJxUzF17kFNdaGY5lDKOXZJKbl3Kh6hLe3rNP+PI0VgHpSn6VM E9kPDcxaxQv9zOJfR7i2r7vmIn/M/+FmXB2/iKTCnzi+F6FkjIzykmzo3BVjOEHCrRztBHCQb xFzfRTEDwrftu5HuZMpkqfocyEHh+EPi1XE6iZVnlqXhgx+dPH9nLcw3QbvYHapxRprgAP6Z1 Qgg7S4jeGQoW4X0cC+nrOmUF1UYY21DafQvvzBhWGBEN/r/FbNv10+BNNwiLxoIQ84VVQ+q6H jh1F841MTkTpbxBHRldltgGF0MbmFjYe3xBCz3Ex0nRVTa/TZOdizPqvqiRcFik2fvpuXftYU tpTE5YMamRzbILm80fYal/0bbbsYzQvGrrDWQKfwIOhxxJabuV03PCwl+Jq5+PeqcbNFehOI9 xFHZL+5rwzcAuk2HjIkww4PsBGlH/e8OQJ13zMYxvZaOvZUUAjNTRQ0x46ShZhIrZ6xF5VuaI CCLwsZRsVlNGPr5pzuvcKiQmix8nFYA2iX8wTrM8uZfZsl78MMxCLs3Lim++IunSlecVJRrTt 2k1s5ELX4amX6L1O4169BbwxNp9rqGRvjbcqo3UI2FaribYBdZcigCHV3OCyEUEvFRdGqpKCN i289Kgfn1vF5vbdbZufpPOMmwe83t3RO/YfUWdkafWP3mY8ea9zzNcVLuRebA7y5aqKjHuBLf AsuwHcg5JbYghZ5pfxGPuUc4B1VUnLeahfH2zVMvqCPSg59PB6OOTbhBEiVNzxbiwR0ZMHzPV YdpnTdQZbAbGGk2mMZ32oeJ5cvokOwOQ2iWeVVgRDZtvq0v7mjtMcbctHmOqB32U+LlMKNXTk IHoIIJcRnQJj5sqHKA8b67WLHR7E+XZRwJVmIGflx4YdU Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 06:42:16 -0000 ------1DHCQ0RXOLT3WV0ZCL2UMBX6GKF76G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder whether some form of communication would not be better handled by = a dedicated PR department: https://www=2Egesetze-im-internet=2Ede/tkg_2021/__145=2Ehtml Stopping supplying Ukraine with starlink is off the table again and starli= nk apparently will keep footing the bill=2E Again I wonder whether a well crafted press release about the monitary equ= ivalent of what starlink already did and predicts to do in the future toget= her with a veiled question of how wise it seems putting the supply of such = important infrastructure for ukraine solely in the hands of corporate gener= osity might have raised the apparently desired awareness without all that m= uch bruhaha? Long story short: Starlink/Musk keep supplying Ukraine with important inte= rnet access=2E Which IMHO is a good thing, even though I agree with the sen= timent that supplying this infrastructure should not rely on generosity of = non-state actors=2E Regards Sebadtian On 15 October 2022 18:51:07 CEST, Larry Press via Starlink wrote: >> (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a good >> enough copy of it to see the units)=2E > >Is this what you are referring to? > >https://twitter=2Ecom/elonmusk/status/1580572380535001088 >Elon Musk on Twitter: "Starlink data usage growth in Ukraine" >Starlink data usage growth in Ukraine =2E 13 Oct 2022 14:53:15 >twitter=2Ecom > >________________________________ >From: David Lang >Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:07 PM >To: David Lang >Cc: Larry Press ; Kurtis Heimerl ; Starlink list >Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian arm= y? > >Also, they didn't say that SpaceX was cutting service or stopping funding= it, >they just said that they aren't going to continue to provide the service = for >free indefinantly and are not going to keep providing lots of dishes for = free >(apparently there are around 500/month being destroyed due to combat) > >David Lang > > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, David Lang wrote: > >> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) >> From: David Lang >> To: Larry Press >> Cc: Kurtis Heimerl , David Lang , >> Starlink list >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian a= rmy? >> >> some interesting tidbits in that article >> >> 1=2E 25k dishes rather than the 15k I had heard befor >> 2=2E they are providing full business rates rather than consumer rates >> 2a=2E it's interesting that they can do this with the consumer dishes, = although >> a lot of what I saw shipped were the gen1 (round) dishes, which may be = better >> than the gen 2 consumer dishes=2E >> >> yes, the companies who manufacture the weapons have been paid in full= =2E >> >> I think it's worth pointing out that Starlink was never intended to be = the >> entire communications infrastructure for a country=2E I think it would = be a >> very interesting thing to investigate what the actual density of users = and >> data usage is (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a go= od >> enough copy of it to see the units)=2E It could confirm/refute the "sta= rlink >> can't scale" argument >> >> David Lang >> >> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Larry Press wrote: >> >>> SpaceX has given a more detailed statement of expenses to the Pentagon= : >>> https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://www=2Ecnn=2Ecom/2022/10/13/polit= ics/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index=2Ehtml__;!!P7nkOOY!rDEzzSiy8qtG= lgTibA-Lr3EWZACew7sLaKOButYjCYaXZcpu7kC8fFEzdw_aSA5LPOS7NZaiij7XHw$ >>> >>> They have been "paid" in favorable publicity and have tested/refined t= hings >>> like mobile connectivity=2E >>> >>> Aren't the companies that supply weapons, ammunition, etc=2E paid? >>> >>> Larry >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Starlink on behalf = of David >>> Lang via Starlink >>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:28 AM >>> To: Kurtis Heimerl >>> Cc: Starlink list >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian = army? >>> >>> Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m tota= l >>> figure >>> is the $20m/month figure he quoted=2E With 15k dishes as the figure th= at they >>> sent >>> (separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercial side), th= at >>> works >>> out to 1=2E3k/dish/month, which is very high=2E >>> >>> now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukraine = could >>> be >>> driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming=2E But in hi= s tweet >>> he >>> also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as "Ukraine >>> related" >>> costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work sho= uld >>> be >>> either) >>> >>> David Lang >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote: >>> >>>> This thread >>>> (https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://twitter=2Ecom/dim0kq/status/15= 80827171903635456__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V= _02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUURE6WtPnA$ >>>> ) >>>> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at >>>> least on the consumer side=2E I imagine there are significant >>>> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but >>>> not on the basic model=2E >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not even setting= the >>>>>> expectation that it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cfreemium=E2=80=9D model, i= t=E2=80=99s very hard to get out of >>>>>> it=2E If >>>>>> you then claim your costs are way higher than what analysis work ou= t, >>>>>> eyebrows >>>>>> raise way above the hairline=2E >>>>> >>>>> Uh=2E Hmm=2E >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>>> https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/list= info/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02d= lWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >>>> https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listi= nfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dl= WYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ >> --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------1DHCQ0RXOLT3WV0ZCL2UMBX6GKF76G Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder whether some form of communication would not be= better handled by a dedicated PR department:
https://www=2Egesetze-im-int= ernet=2Ede/tkg_2021/__145=2Ehtml

Stopping supplying Ukraine with= starlink is off the table again and starlink apparently will keep footing = the bill=2E

Again I wonder whether a well crafted press release abou= t the monitary equivalent of what starlink already did and predicts to do i= n the future together with a veiled question of how wise it seems putting t= he supply of such important infrastructure for ukraine solely in the hands = of corporate generosity might have raised the apparently desired awareness = without all that much bruhaha?

Long story short: Starlink/Musk keep = supplying Ukraine with important internet access=2E Which IMHO is a good th= ing, even though I agree with the sentiment that supplying this infrastruct= ure should not rely on generosity of non-state actors=2E

Regards
= Sebadtian

On 15 October 2022 18:5= 1:07 CEST, Larry Press via Starlink <starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet&= gt; wrote:
> (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a good
> enough copy of it to see the units)=2E 

Is this what you are referring to?

https://twitter=2Ecom/elonmusk/status/158057238053= 5001088
Starlink data usage growth in Ukraine =2E 13 Oct 2022 14:53:15
twitter=2Ecom

From: David Lang <david= @lang=2Ehm>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:07 PM
To: David Lang <david@lang=2Ehm>
Cc: Larry Press <lpress@csudh=2Eedu>; Kurtis Heimerl <khei= merl@cs=2Ewashington=2Eedu>; Starlink list <starlink@lists=2Ebufferbl= oat=2Enet>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukraini= an army?
 
Also, they didn't say that SpaceX was cutting ser= vice or stopping funding it,
they just said that they aren't going to continue to provide the service f= or
free indefinantly and are not going to keep providing lots of dishes for f= ree
(apparently there are around 500/month being destroyed due to combat)

David Lang

  On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, David Lang wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Lang <david@lang=2Ehm>
> To: Larry Press <lpress@csudh=2Eedu>
> Cc: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs=2Ewashington=2Eedu>, David Lang= <david@lang=2Ehm>,
>     Starlink list <starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloa= t=2Enet>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian= army?
>
> some interesting tidbits in that article
>
> 1=2E 25k dishes rather than the 15k I had heard befor
> 2=2E they are providing full business rates rather than consumer rate= s
> 2a=2E it's interesting that they can do this with the consumer dishes= , although
> a lot of what I saw shipped were the gen1 (round) dishes, which may b= e better
> than the gen 2 consumer dishes=2E
>
> yes, the companies who manufacture the weapons have been paid in full= =2E
>
> I think it's worth pointing out that Starlink was never intended to b= e the
> entire communications infrastructure for a country=2E I think it woul= d be a
> very interesting thing to investigate what the actual density of user= s and
> data usage is (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a = good
> enough copy of it to see the units)=2E It could confirm/refute the "s= tarlink
> can't scale" argument
>
> David Lang
>
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Larry Press wrote:
>
>> SpaceX has given a more detailed statement of expenses to the Pen= tagon:
>> https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://www=2Ecnn=2Ecom/2022/10/13/politics/= elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index=2Ehtml__;!!P7nkOOY!rDEzzSiy8qtGlgTi= bA-Lr3EWZACew7sLaKOButYjCYaXZcpu7kC8fFEzdw_aSA5LPOS7NZaiij7XHw$ 
>>
>> They have been "paid" in favorable publicity and have tested/refi= ned things
>> like mobile connectivity=2E
>>
>> Aren't the companies that supply weapons, ammunition, etc=2E paid= ?
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet>= on behalf of David
>> Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet>
>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:28 AM
>> To: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs=2Ewashington=2Eedu>
>> Cc: Starlink list <starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrai= nian army?
>>
>> Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m= total
>> figure
>> is the $20m/month figure he quoted=2E With 15k dishes as the figu= re that they
>> sent
>> (separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercial side= ), that
>> works
>> out to 1=2E3k/dish/month, which is very high=2E
>>
>> now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukr= aine could
>> be
>> driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming=2E But = in his tweet
>> he
>> also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as "Ukr= aine
>> related"
>> costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense wor= k should
>> be
>> either)
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote:
>>
>>> This thread
>>> (https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://twitter=2Ecom/dim0kq/s= tatus/1580827171903635456__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29= JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUURE6WtPnA$
>>> )
>>> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their servi= ce, at
>>> least on the consumer side=2E I imagine there are significant=
>>> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors invol= ved but
>>> not on the basic model=2E
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starli= nk
>>> <starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, no= t even setting the
>>>>> expectation that it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cfreemium=E2= =80=9D model, it=E2=80=99s very hard to get out of
>>>>> it=2E If
>>>>> you then claim your costs are way higher than what an= alysis work out,
>>>>> eyebrows
>>>>> raise way above the hairline=2E
>>>>
>>>> Uh=2E  Hmm=2E
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
>>>> https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/s= tarlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi= 4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet
>>> https://urldefense=2Ecom/v3/__https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/s= tarlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi= 4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$
>
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please ex= cuse my brevity=2E
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