From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 205E1B39CDC for ; Thu, 01 Jan 2026 00:18:43 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1767223123; x=1767827923; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=XcDk8bu/bs/EcHMcwMEuy6vhWaKYIU9ruyGJE65XBkU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=C93L2JTBLCTVYNK7Kf3kV1KXyNyU6xWIBlD3Z1hSvFFyey3M1y5O3/WlsTIVNhgg golqomb3E6z2QHHvgp4BCSXua57XEtUliaG1C4xskYeOXT9oUzNJ9eXrurJWmFB2O 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news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Bufferbloat cure question List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Colin, > On 31. Dec 2025, at 23:19, Colin_Higbie via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > I have a question for the experts here. This is not necessarily = limited to Starlink, but at Starlink's latest bandwidth capabilites, = pushing past 300Mbps, this becomes relevant to Starlink.=20 >=20 > In my simple tests at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat, = using both Starlink and a new 1Gbps symmetric fiber connection (we're = keeping Starlink for backup), I see decent but not great bufferbloat and = jitter values of about 16-25ms by setting my router to a standard = Adaptive QoS setting (an Asus consumer-grade router that supports 1Gbps = WAN connection, RT-AX86U-Pro). When I use CAKE at lower speeds, it = impressively crushes the impact under load down to about 0-1ms. But that = only holds at lower speeds, meaning a bad day for Starlink where it's = not pushing 300Mbps or if I set my router to limit bandwidth to about = 280Mbps. On fiber, I have to limit the 1Gbps connection to 280Mbps to = run CAKE and eliminate the bufferbloat. >=20 > At 300Mbps or higher, bufferbloat and jitter skyrocket to hundreds of = ms, much worse than not using CAKE at all. I can see one of the 4 router = CPU cores spikes to 100% at those transfer rates whenever I don't limit = bandwidth to something below 280Mbps. My crude understanding is that = CAKE can only run on a single CPU core (can't be multithreaded to take = advantage of the other 3 cores) and becomes CPU bound at higher transfer = rates. Then, when the CPU is maxed, CAKE will do more harm than good, = which is exactly why bufferbloat actually increases with CAKE above = 280Mbps. In deed cake's shaper and complicated scheduler do not like running out = of timely CPU access... (the solution is simple, 1at gigabit rates get a = real CPU with a solid IO and memory system, quite a lot of all in one = routers are simply not designed for that load) > I understand that FQ-CoDel is similar. Which is incorrect... fq-codel has a simpler scheduler than cake and no = traffic shaper, combined with e.g. HTB you can build a shaper that fails = differently than cake on CPU overload... HTB+fq-codel as in sqm-scripts = simple.qos will not show increased latency but simply a reduced rate. >=20 > All those tests are on wired connections, so these are not Wi-Fi = effects. >=20 > Presumably, a faster CPU would increase the rate before CAKE becomes = the bottleneck. Indeed. > But to my surprise, I can't find anything on the Internet that = addresses solutions to bufferbloat at higher bandwidths or confirms that = some modern routers have fast enough CPU to run at the full bandwidth = capability of their WAN port. Have a look at LibreQoS... >=20 > I had been told that a simple Ubiquiti Gateway-Lite between the = Internet and my wireless router could take on this role, that it had a = sufficiently powerful CPU to handle up to about 1Gbps (or very close to = that), but in my testing, first, it doesn't appear to include CAKE, and = turning on FQ-CoDel, as its closest alternative, requires disabling its = hardware acceleration, which dramatically harms both throughput and = latency under load. A lot of cheapish x86 machines will do a gigabit with cake quite = easily... >=20 > I'm willing to go up to something more expensive and powerful (like = the Ubiquiti UDR7, where I like Ubiquiti for the group management of all = the networking hardware from one interface with our existing Ubiquiti = Wi-Fi APs, but that's not a requirement, and I don't think any of the = Ubiquiti routers include CAKE), but given how hard it is to find = anything on the Internet about this, it makes me suspicious that I'm = chasing the wrong problem. >=20 > My chief concern is keeping jitter to a level where it will not cause = any issues for VoIP or video calls. At 16-25ms, that's not bad, but it = can lead to some stuttering and glitching on calls, shifting QoS to = prioritize voice and video calls helps, but if I could just eliminate = the bufferbloat, seems that would be a better solution. >=20 > Questions: >=20 > 1. If CAKE is not viable due to CPU constraints on most modern routers = as their WAN port transfer rate, then what is the recommended solution? Get a router with a beefy enough CPU... many of the commercial offerings = for laymen pair an relative weak CPU with some offload engines to make = up for the weak CPU, but traffic shaping typically can not be off = loaded, so this simply shows routers that are offered for gigabit rates, = but are really not up to the job.=20 > 2. Are there any routers that can handle CAKE at 1Gbps or 2Gbps? I hear the minisforum ms-01 is quite popular with the LibreQoS crowd = (albeit not cheap). Or if you are willing to twiddle a bit, even a = raspberry pi5 with an additional USB3 gigabit ethernet dongle should = work at 1 Gbps. >=20 > 3. Is there a site that provides ratings for different routers at = these high bandwidths or lists MODERN 1Gbps+ routers that support CAKE = up to their full bandwidth capacity? Not that I know off, but e.g the OpenWrt forum has some benchmark = threads that might at least give an expectation. >=20 > 4. Or, at bandwidths above 300Mbps, are these 16-25ms increases = considered acceptable, meaning I'm chasing perfection when I should just = be happy with 16-25ms latency impact and jitter under load and accept = that occasionally any Internet connection will have some problems when = the connection gets crowded?=20 >=20 > How should I tackle finding a solution? And if I'm asking the wrong = questions, please feel free to mock my ignorance in your response. :-) = Let my foolishness be used educate others (and myself).=20 >=20 > Many thanks, > Colin > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net