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boundary="_000_BN7PR03MB3859D61CC8854EC721FF434FC2279BN7PR03MB3859namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: csudh.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN7PR03MB3859.namprd03.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fc91803b-035c-411f-a823-08daaecd7467 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Oct 2022 16:51:07.0200 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 1a66a727-7389-4727-a8cb-f249ac8e7ff8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 72ILHy+LHtVxBXgJ+uMXGstBUl92WWAfGT0z4Gooy9FEKU2eGrYwzbgNM4i2uhXJ2BoziSlPWzC1zxxyPoUZCA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW5PR03MB6959 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 0ts8_Umf933JdgTq3Pvea-AZ4zDGYOxp X-Proofpoint-GUID: 0ts8_Umf933JdgTq3Pvea-AZ4zDGYOxp X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.895,Hydra:6.0.545,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2022-10-15_10,2022-10-14_01,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2209130000 definitions=main-2210150101 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2022 16:51:18 -0000 --_000_BN7PR03MB3859D61CC8854EC721FF434FC2279BN7PR03MB3859namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a good > enough copy of it to see the units). Is this what you are referring to? https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1580572380535001088 Elon Musk on Twitter: "Starlink data usage growth in Ukraine" Starlink data usage growth in Ukraine . 13 Oct 2022 14:53:15 twitter.com ________________________________ From: David Lang Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:07 PM To: David Lang Cc: Larry Press ; Kurtis Heimerl ; Starlink list Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? Also, they didn't say that SpaceX was cutting service or stopping funding i= t, they just said that they aren't going to continue to provide the service fo= r free indefinantly and are not going to keep providing lots of dishes for fr= ee (apparently there are around 500/month being destroyed due to combat) David Lang On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, David Lang wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Lang > To: Larry Press > Cc: Kurtis Heimerl , David Lang , > Starlink list > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian arm= y? > > some interesting tidbits in that article > > 1. 25k dishes rather than the 15k I had heard befor > 2. they are providing full business rates rather than consumer rates > 2a. it's interesting that they can do this with the consumer dishes, alth= ough > a lot of what I saw shipped were the gen1 (round) dishes, which may be be= tter > than the gen 2 consumer dishes. > > yes, the companies who manufacture the weapons have been paid in full. > > I think it's worth pointing out that Starlink was never intended to be th= e > entire communications infrastructure for a country. I think it would be a > very interesting thing to investigate what the actual density of users an= d > data usage is (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a good > enough copy of it to see the units). It could confirm/refute the "starlin= k > can't scale" argument > > David Lang > > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Larry Press wrote: > >> SpaceX has given a more detailed statement of expenses to the Pentagon: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon= -musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index.html__;!!P7nkOOY!rDEzzSiy8qtGlgTibA-Lr3= EWZACew7sLaKOButYjCYaXZcpu7kC8fFEzdw_aSA5LPOS7NZaiij7XHw$ >> >> They have been "paid" in favorable publicity and have tested/refined thi= ngs >> like mobile connectivity. >> >> Aren't the companies that supply weapons, ammunition, etc. paid? >> >> Larry >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Starlink on behalf of Dav= id >> Lang via Starlink >> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:28 AM >> To: Kurtis Heimerl >> Cc: Starlink list >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian ar= my? >> >> Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m total >> figure >> is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the figure that t= hey >> sent >> (separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercial side), that >> works >> out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high. >> >> now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukraine co= uld >> be >> driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming. But in his tw= eet >> he >> also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as "Ukraine >> related" >> costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work shoul= d >> be >> either) >> >> David Lang >> >> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote: >> >>> This thread >>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/dim0kq/status/15808271= 71903635456__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlW= YYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUURE6WtPnA$ >>> ) >>> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at >>> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant >>> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but >>> not on the basic model. >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not even setting t= he >>>>> expectation that it=92s a =93freemium=94 model, it=92s very hard to g= et out of >>>>> it. If >>>>> you then claim your costs are way higher than what analysis work out, >>>>> eyebrows >>>>> raise way above the hairline. >>>> >>>> Uh. Hmm. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4z= fQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/star= link__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zf= Q-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ > --_000_BN7PR03MB3859D61CC8854EC721FF434FC2279BN7PR03MB3859namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a good
> enough copy of it to see the units). 

Is this what you are referring to?

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1580572380535001088=
Starlink data usage growth in Ukraine . 13 Oct 2022 14:53:15
twitter.com

From: David Lang <david@= lang.hm>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:07 PM
To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
Cc: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu>; Kurtis Heimerl <kheimer= l@cs.washington.edu>; Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net&g= t;
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainia= n army?
 
Also, they didn't say that SpaceX was cutting serv= ice or stopping funding it,
they just said that they aren't going to continue to provide the service fo= r
free indefinantly and are not going to keep providing lots of dishes for fr= ee
(apparently there are around 500/month being destroyed due to combat)

David Lang

  On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, David Lang wrote:

> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT)
> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
> To: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu>
> Cc: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>, David Lang <= david@lang.hm>,
>     Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.n= et>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian = army?
>
> some interesting tidbits in that article
>
> 1. 25k dishes rather than the 15k I had heard befor
> 2. they are providing full business rates rather than consumer rates > 2a. it's interesting that they can do this with the consumer dishes, a= lthough
> a lot of what I saw shipped were the gen1 (round) dishes, which may be= better
> than the gen 2 consumer dishes.
>
> yes, the companies who manufacture the weapons have been paid in full.=
>
> I think it's worth pointing out that Starlink was never intended to be= the
> entire communications infrastructure for a country. I think it would b= e a
> very interesting thing to investigate what the actual density of users= and
> data usage is (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a g= ood
> enough copy of it to see the units). It could confirm/refute the "= ;starlink
> can't scale" argument
>
> David Lang
>
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Larry Press wrote:
>
>> SpaceX has given a more detailed statement of expenses to the Pent= agon:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-mu= sk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index.html__;!!P7nkOOY!rDEzzSiy8qtGlgTibA-Lr3EWZ= ACew7sLaKOButYjCYaXZcpu7kC8fFEzdw_aSA5LPOS7NZaiij7XHw$ 
>>
>> They have been "paid" in favorable publicity and have te= sted/refined things
>> like mobile connectivity.
>>
>> Aren't the companies that supply weapons, ammunition, etc. paid? >>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on b= ehalf of David
>> Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:28 AM
>> To: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>
>> Cc: Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrain= ian army?
>>
>> Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m = total
>> figure
>> is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the figure = that they
>> sent
>> (separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercial side)= , that
>> works
>> out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high.
>>
>> now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukra= ine could
>> be
>> driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming. But in = his tweet
>> he
>> also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as "= ;Ukraine
>> related"
>> costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work= should
>> be
>> either)
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote:
>>
>>> This thread
>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/dim0kq/status= /1580827171903635456__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsr= l8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUURE6WtPnA$
>>> )
>>> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their servic= e, at
>>> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant >>> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involv= ed but
>>> not on the basic model.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlin= k
>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not= even setting the
>>>>> expectation that it=92s a =93freemium=94 model, it=92s= very hard to get out of
>>>>> it. If
>>>>> you then claim your costs are way higher than what ana= lysis work out,
>>>>> eyebrows
>>>>> raise way above the hairline.
>>>>
>>>> Uh.  Hmm.
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink= __;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CC= RLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$
>
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