From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mx0a-00559701.pphosted.com (mx0a-00559701.pphosted.com [205.220.164.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89E933B2A4 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 14:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0210272.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00559701.pphosted.com (8.17.1.5/8.17.1.5) with ESMTP id 29EB0c0m019098; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:32:24 GMT Received: from nam04-mw2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam04lp2177.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.73.177]) by mx0a-00559701.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3k6qcesg1a-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:32:23 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=HzCqSB+nsrfJND5FXrrf4NFMjtEKj/O+XEIRo4VOwSKUa0UPxT8dDXTl1ZnrvJU8CfuFgYH4gI+eOeSlIsyA3UxLQ+QH4kM/n+4jM4YTiL+Izk9iCIACCpyTHfwpM5tjpBp7qFE9CjOcl6eP/D3FA0B+1QgLBwtlr3DP2FWwuoLwVv973kt6E/QP/1Or1LlD+vpoWEp70H9SY17q09vF48/yjSNLTr8sZnEXkZ8ZKdMM9HFRbVq/IurebgezA5n6JcWya4TGLB5T4xTfk6m1CGRa5NBX3o/40B6bPuj5GD8SzX89NeQ4LUnN/Ih4DN5SGYqGm/zBxuE0Tq/ENouIYA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=/L57MFAAX8FPS5lrI6dk4A92Ry/unBlnMKHczw3ODpE=; b=eX1x5gKKrHfD7WGYXG0GzqORuqe0mNxPsWdQi9Sy/Wd9P+Nb9o1Zicgt5To86AkLvA3tUzXhzNbAAptDxY4qopv2PmGMbhOnIJ+QwnFBkegZld4gjI0hKFfP2AQ5lLDJdcyPRLIMgU9FBG9Jm0UUM3xVd5uaRAmy4NP7DPYT3Ivv50hlAaE97JOvIP4RURrXtd+THJBfXfODj5/8+udP43sThZ6RdTKONMjpB+qwp7evcBL6+K0NdabN9L71TtJBvrnfWO44j6ABHQcONx/MYXNFu38vuS101fqFM4Rtiz/tKWJQXAKdfM1k5R6Sj81INFtsRBgkhDcIGnqN5kbmJw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=csudh.edu; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=csudh.edu; dkim=pass header.d=csudh.edu; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csudh0.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-csudh0-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=/L57MFAAX8FPS5lrI6dk4A92Ry/unBlnMKHczw3ODpE=; b=BuGQWRGIy2+Zrt9Ot24aP04XqRpGwvWGWjWnsSz5gsCGrfiZwYfDAAAkAgRb+GsEI/OoY22kvmGwkTW8xf0c0vXaUXFpOjODHnrvUR8JHf50rD20LTKOnkXxFLs9QhaGsChVWqK6qg5usKybxAIR4oVFJ0p595Cz4AnO8qtfu20= Received: from BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:6a::30) by SA2PR03MB5801.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11d::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5723.26; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:32:20 +0000 Received: from BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::866a:ce2b:cbe7:9652]) by BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::866a:ce2b:cbe7:9652%2]) with mapi id 15.20.5709.015; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:32:20 +0000 From: Larry Press To: Kurtis Heimerl , David Lang CC: Starlink list Thread-Topic: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? Thread-Index: AQHY38V6cGsF00iUNkOrJrXMK1qD4a4N19yAgAAGJgCAABE6gIAAHueAgAAS2YCAAAQ4gIAAD1DH Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:32:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <38522124-6d3b-4ac8-bb20-92bfa35dc9fe@Spark> <87tu46o8e3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3ea89257-d5f8-4fa9-a90a-c73d49d2a9e2@Spark> <87r0zao0f0.wl-jch@irif.fr> <398208s8-6080-r8q7-s6rs-q9np11428n3o@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <398208s8-6080-r8q7-s6rs-q9np11428n3o@ynat.uz> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR03MB3863:EE_|SA2PR03MB5801:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 34e7475c-3eca-4541-ae3b-08daae126dea x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230022)(4636009)(136003)(376002)(366004)(346002)(396003)(39850400004)(451199015)(66946007)(316002)(786003)(110136005)(478600001)(19627405001)(66899015)(71200400001)(966005)(66446008)(66556008)(64756008)(76116006)(66476007)(4326008)(8676002)(8936002)(9686003)(41300700001)(166002)(5660300002)(186003)(7696005)(6506007)(21615005)(2906002)(122000001)(86362001)(38070700005)(53546011)(75432002)(52536014)(38100700002)(33656002)(18265965005)(41320700001)(55016003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?Windows-1252?Q?1pGJlWs/Z5u5memVdICiCFfUmnMjsVCMQAhfGk21wprkvioMuputs1Zh?= =?Windows-1252?Q?4EZz+JjQZOAdBqPEl17jMxO1Rds1jNQtGLTr5LOeSj+VWyoMBrTg17QF?= =?Windows-1252?Q?sS3evD4QYTQij6Q/W3vNgH3YL/NAjbBjIq5ph/SIMo83Qt8LlZc2q+Iv?= =?Windows-1252?Q?6giltX16RzaEzDX4BnC1Log8c9FU7Yt2FbR11cTgsvhmcz2UYBIy+iVL?= =?Windows-1252?Q?TVRz4XV0zEPgIsq0+U1qIVg4D+HVmgzcVBsE1K5oROk/lm/jP++k364x?= =?Windows-1252?Q?XGDU1tXdh49Z9YKzxBEHCyTlBdZ221aTr7P9uTT7S2j+7QI0Beaq/euR?= =?Windows-1252?Q?jHooQdIMX6xh1kUC+nG6xUI7QrpbRLnViWl5cv7xDTlZEoRhKOyyHI7V?= =?Windows-1252?Q?ueizqmqEsaZUDagyRaCgt8hrQBufDMAdX8S15led/rusjY/wQ5Rb4DNv?= =?Windows-1252?Q?x2LK9YyND1GM3KbTN6nd1BdsZd0PG2lzdceEKSnBrxd7G9OSh8PooBJG?= =?Windows-1252?Q?uLly9BQ3fUjehRZzXSj7VxJzMw0skN2SGXzGrUJMH7TaoURThAXT67+Z?= =?Windows-1252?Q?hHHqgtiCHF0ZwPk8vWGvXupRYuNpcCFLD+deKORHm4eKWet2mmucnC3A?= =?Windows-1252?Q?S7fGCjKKUcUkDK0EtS8f/JeQKXNWVqC98F5U72atHT9/SJv6WB51AdSJ?= =?Windows-1252?Q?m9Pg71NSTqd3uREkTCuvHpSOSm4dzPakUY9sgVmpmDGeA2O0v7eH5m8M?= =?Windows-1252?Q?kmnY/LWO88YeT7Zy3ix6JfZMECglTarr7yVOjWoajiJDe/gt9WjkXARP?= =?Windows-1252?Q?rWeTQxR/cfnrOCDkB1uL+Vx+omV4Wrya0PcpPS2aQDYZfFrOVhOLWnCm?= =?Windows-1252?Q?04qkujkNDMNTvET5R8iR4n9C4iYUFUvb1Hz7lWZe8s3OVr91I2eAf+4j?= =?Windows-1252?Q?NqXQ4EMjCkrM08z2SP872jsu6HxqUGzIG9aVw2yayke/VMKosk+ZYQnT?= =?Windows-1252?Q?4Qp7BKPwzO4NExDA2SrZZ87pAUw51H5MSYVeU4bMRL5dlVzQs7pWawmG?= =?Windows-1252?Q?14FDLqK9c5Q3YU3A22B+VtiVPVB1ntodpeBJHcBuSiUmy4+Vr2SUDIfJ?= =?Windows-1252?Q?YCIQXA70vG8qtWO9TRCLRxME4GuTb7lC7euG1b0K3a2ZdT9d2V7a25Y5?= =?Windows-1252?Q?11G4M4iBdHgg+sKDKi0eccAMhzGjg/7NUMEv7osNaLZ8b4sJWGBW9z6T?= =?Windows-1252?Q?kbnVYl5ZcNwqmKpX1AS3Ln5kO+m1PTB3KEye3z9lPdf1K8lF7b4httDk?= =?Windows-1252?Q?CurEcMH8BfqI+3zEg9Vndcm8AKa8uDwlXdJE6tPkEEcJILLsWBcRfMLa?= =?Windows-1252?Q?gDMRK8IizS2/3sOuiVRiaqDOSGQXar+drF6plZBz1Mgo0bA0S4wdHVtI?= =?Windows-1252?Q?ylRjoyLEmPRXkwigq548B7UbU42UsxwD4CjWI5sV2xt2le2V4n7keTyt?= =?Windows-1252?Q?OX8BMLG0uxqk99NlOvA/7IKknBNI975Su8uN8wD2flhWBFx3QCFy1KOp?= =?Windows-1252?Q?Kl9HxapH836dIF46fi3Feu0CF3qfrbl6hep7k0CwVM5geuZHDCpD0WVO?= =?Windows-1252?Q?fcFqhIbGi4qP8AE6BXhI8CSlOJ2WaB5Zhbjq18oWCE+Xgtj9MaqcMqhj?= =?Windows-1252?Q?CkqVxSIKl67cdEOPS81JxN70LwnL82yARN8Vn/m3JWOsm5Bog46fVrp5?= =?Windows-1252?Q?426AqE+kgLQOxMDgQRA=3D?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR03MB3863209C8AFFEFCEDB8DA96DC2249BYAPR03MB3863namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: csudh.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 34e7475c-3eca-4541-ae3b-08daae126dea X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Oct 2022 18:32:20.2774 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 1a66a727-7389-4727-a8cb-f249ac8e7ff8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5bdYUG2iv7MRduOslaWGY1lcIY2oa0yG/AtuDCSJ1/rys5/oJMYmyJerqTJcijYV8GyKHAr62pICZXf73eGAeA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR03MB5801 X-Proofpoint-GUID: lW5yCZtPEJV3RIuK-AHVHT3H1p12lJ1L X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: lW5yCZtPEJV3RIuK-AHVHT3H1p12lJ1L X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.895,Hydra:6.0.545,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2022-10-14_09,2022-10-14_01,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 clxscore=1011 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2209130000 definitions=main-2210140101 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:32:31 -0000 --_000_BYAPR03MB3863209C8AFFEFCEDB8DA96DC2249BYAPR03MB3863namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SpaceX has given a more detailed statement of expenses to the Pentagon: https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/i= ndex.html They have been "paid" in favorable publicity and have tested/refined things= like mobile connectivity. Aren't the companies that supply weapons, ammunition, etc. paid? Larry ________________________________ From: Starlink on behalf of David = Lang via Starlink Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:28 AM To: Kurtis Heimerl Cc: Starlink list Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m total fig= ure is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the figure that they= sent (separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercial side), that wo= rks out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high. now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukraine could= be driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming. But in his tweet= he also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as "Ukraine relat= ed" costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work should b= e either) David Lang On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote: > This thread (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/dim0kq/statu= s/1580827171903635456__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUs= rl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUURE6WtPnA$ ) > strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at > least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant > operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but > not on the basic model. > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink > wrote: >> >> > In essence, once you give something away for free, not even setting th= e >> > expectation that it=92s a =93freemium=94 model, it=92s very hard to ge= t out of it. If >> > you then claim your costs are way higher than what analysis work out, = eyebrows >> > raise way above the hairline. >> >> Uh. Hmm. >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starl= ink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ= -CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starli= nk__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-= CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ --_000_BYAPR03MB3863209C8AFFEFCEDB8DA96DC2249BYAPR03MB3863namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SpaceX has given a more detailed statement of expenses to the Pentagon:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/= 10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukraine/index.html

They have been "paid" in favorable publicity and have tested/refi= ned things like mobile connectivity.

Aren't the companies that supply weapons, ammunition, etc. paid?

Larry


From: Starlink <starlink= -bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of David Lang via Starlink <= ;starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:28 AM
To: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>
Cc: Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainia= n army?
 
Having now read more info on this, less significan= t than the $80m total figure
is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the figure that they= sent
(separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercial side), that wo= rks
out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high.

now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukraine could= be
driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming. But in his tweet= he
also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as "Ukraine = related"
costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work should b= e
either)

David Lang

On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote:

> This thread (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twit= ter.com/dim0kq/status/1580827171903635456__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436U= HdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUURE6WtPnA$ = ; )
> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at > least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant
> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but > not on the basic model.
>
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> > In essence, once you give something away for free, not even s= etting the
>> > expectation that it=92s a =93freemium=94 model, it=92s very h= ard to get out of it. If
>> > you then claim your costs are way higher than what analysis w= ork out, eyebrows
>> > raise way above the hairline.
>>
>> Uh.  Hmm.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink= __;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CC= RLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink= __;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4zfQ-CC= RLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ 
--_000_BYAPR03MB3863209C8AFFEFCEDB8DA96DC2249BYAPR03MB3863namp_--