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Reed" CC: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" Thread-Topic: [Starlink] Starlink deplyment in Ukraine Thread-Index: AQHYMPKvHoJSzB76JUGhBt1d/jV4N6yxibMAgABQX5k= Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 05:58:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1646527180.51036626@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: suggested_attachment_session_id: 19563756-192c-ba1c-920e-f79b8ae5a67f x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8b5ce589-4fc1-4ad5-8ad8-08d9ff365e10 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: PH0PR03MB6236:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_BYAPR03MB38636126A57966F48EFA05BEC2079BYAPR03MB3863namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: csudh.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8b5ce589-4fc1-4ad5-8ad8-08d9ff365e10 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Mar 2022 05:58:41.8282 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 1a66a727-7389-4727-a8cb-f249ac8e7ff8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ewdUQFfoS84FhuNsr9X1tjBq8JnHqpPyd/TQHRea7NK+++C/5OIk+qNF6caH8YtH5CeBcPI8UwgLo1mB2VG/PQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PH0PR03MB6236 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Bs19icenqKgblL4ENrku-iUe2KTxVP3g X-Proofpoint-GUID: Bs19icenqKgblL4ENrku-iUe2KTxVP3g X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.64.514 definitions=2022-03-06_01,2022-03-04_01,2022-02-23_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2202240000 definitions=main-2203060039 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink deplyment in Ukraine X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2022 05:58:49 -0000 --_000_BYAPR03MB38636126A57966F48EFA05BEC2079BYAPR03MB3863namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ground stations in Turkey, Lithuania, and Poland are reachable from Kyiv. h= ttps://circleid.com/posts/20220301-spacex-starlink-service-in-ukraine-is-an= -important-government-asset. The one in Turkey is often out of range. ________________________________ From: Starlink on behalf of David = Lang Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:02 PM To: David P. Reed Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink deplyment in Ukraine On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, David P. Reed wrote: > THis is a good discussion, and I hope for more. > > 1. I'm really curious how well Starlink's bent-pipe architecture actually > works in a context like Ukraine where fiber and copper infrastructure are > vulnerable and less redundant than in a place like the UK. I'm not so wor= ried > about the dishy's working or being targeted. They can be moved and disgui= sed. > What is not being discussed here (or anywhere) is where the ground statio= ns > that the traffic must *all* traverse are, and the fact that they are Sing= le > Points of Failure, and must be nailed down in places which are close enou= gh to > the dishy they serve, and also fiber-backhauled into the Internet. This i= s a > serious technical issue that interests me, mostly because Starlink doesn'= t > publish its technical specs. > > So these ground stations for Ukrainian coverage are where? Ukraine is a B= IG > area. It certainly won't be covered by one ground station. And it certain= ly > can't be just an 18-wheeler with a huge antenna on top, because it needs = to be > connected to a point-of-presence with lots of capacity - the sum of all t= he > dishy's peak loads. > > I'm suspecting that some ground station is actually in Ukraine itself, bu= t > putting it in Kyiv just makes it a tempting target (like a power station = or > water utility), and it is much more vulnerable and visible to Russian tro= ops > in the area. > > Now Poland and Moldova are potential sites that might cover part of Ukrai= ne, > but certainly not that far into the country. I actually doubt that the ground stations are in Ukraine, that would requir= e much more significant setup (think about the engineers flown out to install= a ground station to support Tonga) and would be extremely vulnerable to disruption. Remember, service was turned on and dishys delivered in < 48 hours. disrupting the ground stations in adjacent countries is a rather significan= t escalation. We don't know the full reach of a ground station, but I suspect that some o= f the limitations that people have been talking about are as much software/regula= tions as RF/hardware, and I would not be surprised if such restritions are being relaxed a bit there. > 2. I hope that Starlink isn't just doing this to get Musk in the news, bu= t > actually wants to facilitate ongoing connectivity to the Internet, indepe= ndent > of "sides". (as others here have noted, communications control is a very > imprecise instrument when it is a tool of aggression - "virtue signalling= " by > a billionaire who has been knowmid 1990's trying to bring Internet > connectivity to poor people in Jamaica and poro people in the West Bank e= ach > partly caused the deaths of a few people we thought we were only helping.= But > that's a long story in each context). > > More seriously, if Musk is not covering much of Ukraine at all, and just > shipping dishy's there, that's good, but I hope he doesn't try to take cr= edit > for more than Starlink actually can do. I mean it would also be nice if > Mikrotik shipped in meshable WiFi, but that's of limited utility, even if= the > most clever hackers tried to create an outdoor mesh of them. The coverage > would be very limited, and you still need a non-WiFi path to the Internet= to > communicate over wide areas. So far he has not said anything about the use of them, although some people= in Ukraine had said they have them and are prepared to use them when the wired Internet is disrupted. I would not expect to hear that much about people us= ing them in remote areas yet. We'll probably hear more about that weeks to mont= hs later. David Lang --_000_BYAPR03MB38636126A57966F48EFA05BEC2079BYAPR03MB3863namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ground stations in Turkey, Lithuania, and Poland are reachable from Ky= iv. https://circleid.com/posts/20220301-spacex-starlink-service-in-ukraine-i= s-an-important-government-asset. The one in Turkey is often out of range.


From: Starlink <starlink= -bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of David Lang <david@lang.h= m>
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 5:02 PM
To: David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com>
Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink deplyment in Ukraine
 
On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, David P. Reed wrote:

> THis is a good discussion, and I hope for more.
>
> 1. I'm really curious how well Starlink's bent-pipe architecture actua= lly
> works in a context like Ukraine where fiber and copper infrastructure = are
> vulnerable and less redundant than in a place like the UK. I'm not so = worried
> about the dishy's working or being targeted. They can be moved and dis= guised.
> What is not being discussed here (or anywhere) is where the ground sta= tions
> that the traffic must *all* traverse are, and the fact that they are S= ingle
> Points of Failure, and must be nailed down in places which are close e= nough to
> the dishy they serve, and also fiber-backhauled into the Internet. Thi= s is a
> serious technical issue that interests me, mostly because Starlink doe= sn't
> publish its technical specs.
>
> So these ground stations for Ukrainian coverage are where? Ukraine is = a BIG
> area. It certainly won't be covered by one ground station. And it cert= ainly
> can't be just an 18-wheeler with a huge antenna on top, because it nee= ds to be
> connected to a point-of-presence with lots of capacity - the sum of al= l the
> dishy's peak loads.
>
> I'm suspecting that some ground station is actually in Ukraine itself,= but
> putting it in Kyiv just makes it a tempting target (like a power stati= on or
> water utility), and it is much more vulnerable and visible to Russian = troops
> in the area.
>
> Now Poland and Moldova are potential sites that might cover part of Uk= raine,
> but certainly not that far into the country.

I actually doubt that the ground stations are in Ukraine, that would requir= e
much more significant setup (think about the engineers flown out to install= a
ground station to support Tonga) and would be extremely vulnerable to
disruption.

Remember, service was turned on and dishys delivered in < 48 hours.

disrupting the ground stations in adjacent countries is a rather significan= t
escalation.

We don't know the full reach of a ground station, but I suspect that some o= f the
limitations that people have been talking about are as much software/regula= tions
as RF/hardware, and I would not be surprised if such restritions are being =
relaxed a bit there.

> 2. I hope that Starlink isn't just doing this to get Musk in the news,= but
> actually wants to facilitate ongoing connectivity to the Internet, ind= ependent
> of "sides". (as others here have noted, communications contr= ol is a very
> imprecise instrument when it is a tool of aggression - "virtue si= gnalling" by
> a billionaire who has been knowmid 1990's trying to bring Internet > connectivity to poor people in Jamaica and poro people in the West Ban= k each
> partly caused the deaths of a few people we thought we were only helpi= ng. But
> that's a long story in each context).
>
> More seriously, if Musk is not covering much of Ukraine at all, and ju= st
> shipping dishy's there, that's good, but I hope he doesn't try to take= credit
> for more than Starlink actually can do. I mean it would also be nice i= f
> Mikrotik shipped in meshable WiFi, but that's of limited utility, even= if the
> most clever hackers tried to create an outdoor mesh of them. The cover= age
> would be very limited, and you still need a non-WiFi path to the Inter= net to
> communicate over wide areas.

So far he has not said anything about the use of them, although some people= in
Ukraine had said they have them and are prepared to use them when the wired=
Internet is disrupted. I would not expect to hear that much about people us= ing
them in remote areas yet. We'll probably hear more about that weeks to mont= hs
later.

David Lang
--_000_BYAPR03MB38636126A57966F48EFA05BEC2079BYAPR03MB3863namp_--