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boundary="_000_BYAPR03MB3863BA53D4B5EFCB16840FD7C2059BYAPR03MB3863namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: csudh.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4b50a1b3-3216-42b8-637c-08d9fe0176c3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Mar 2022 17:07:28.9324 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 1a66a727-7389-4727-a8cb-f249ac8e7ff8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0kosx/w882I1uSJowOdo+36iFYr2bQ0JEDXvqSzbMIRZQD9lNGzxJbN0OCh92hmFN8SqGaGiZHNoa8esgFsMog== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA1PR03MB6593 X-Proofpoint-GUID: Cvh1knbaAum9GNpZ0Trq2LjaHiCKkck5 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Cvh1knbaAum9GNpZ0Trq2LjaHiCKkck5 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.816,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.64.514 definitions=2022-03-04_07,2022-03-04_01,2022-02-23_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2202240000 definitions=main-2203040087 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 17:07:40 -0000 --_000_BYAPR03MB3863BA53D4B5EFCB16840FD7C2059BYAPR03MB3863namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity to serve al= l of a small town in Montana But it can serve the leaders of government and the resistance in communicat= ing with each other and the outside world if normal connectivity becomes un= available. ________________________________ From: Starlink on behalf of Ulrich= Speidel Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 1:44 AM To: David Lang ; Mike Puchol Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 Got you there David, and didn't really mean your contribution in the whole = situation. As you point out, anything in comms in inherently dual use. And I think we do have a duty to warn if we see that technology that's out = there might become a risk to those who choose to use it. In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least for= now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite ca= pacity to serve all of a small town in Montana that's surrounded by gateway= s close by, then it's not going to be replacing the Internet as we know it = in a country 60% larger in area and 40 x larger in population. At best it m= ight be able to provide some backup in a relatively small number of places. Another perspective yet: So far, international experience shows that the In= ternet is remarkably robust when it comes to powers that be wanting to shut= it down. It's designed to route around holes and cuts. Unless you depend o= n a small number of identifiable fibre cables out, like Tonga does, it's pr= etty difficult to cut you off completely. I very much doubt that anyone has= a complete may of fibre routes in the Ukraine, let alone the Russians. The= re'll probably be people out there near the borders to Romania, Slovakia, H= ungary and Poland - and probably even to Russia - stringing clandestine fib= re cables across in order to add resilience to their networks. There'll als= o be countless people within Ukraine's border regions who have mobile conne= ctivity into their neighbouring countries that can be put to good use trans= parently. We're talking about a pretty tech-savvy population here... Add wi= -fi and a large number of satellite TV dishes into the mix, and you'll get = my drift. But even so, Russia doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to disrupt = the Internet in Ukraine, at least not just yet. Why? Maybe because the assu= mption that the Internet works against them isn't true from their perspecti= ve. Say you're in Kyiv. Hearing on the grapevine that Kherson has fallen to= the Russians may be one thing, easily dismissed as war propaganda. Actuall= y seeing pictures from the city and getting the local perspective from peop= le you know is far more likely to make you think that your own resistance m= ay be futile. It all feeds into the hype and panic, and creates a fertile g= round for misinformation and fake news, while giving a perfect platform for= Russia to communicate with its own units in the field. I wouldn't be at al= l surprised if a lot of them used Ukranian SIM cards on their phones. I kno= w there's already been a drive among Ukrainian mobile operators to get peop= le to report captured phones so they can be deactivated. On 4/03/2022 9:41 pm, David Lang wrote: There isn't a method of communication (or for that matter, any other tool t= hat I'm aware of) that _can't_ be put to some military use (including the arts) If you want to make sure that an invention can never be used for military purposes, the only way to prevent it is to not invent it (and hope nobody e= lse does), otherwise the best you can do is to give your favored users a head s= tart. So if being quite about a technology isn't going to stop bad guys from (ab)= using it, then the answer is to get the info out there so that the good guys will= know how to use it. This discussion started with me providing an alternate view to one of the n= ews articles that are circulating that say that using a starlink in Ukrane is painting yourself to be a target. I may be wrong (I've been wrong before, I= will be wrong again), but I think it's a topic worth discussion in the open, not= just in military circles. getting off my soapbox for a couple paragraphs As for Starlink, since it doesn't require local infrastructure, it's going = to be used by those who are opposed to those who are controlling said infrastruct= ure, and the only way those controlling the infrastructure can actually prevent = it (other than by making people too afraid to use it, which does not have a tr= ack record of long-term success) is to attack the starlink infrastructure (via cyber, kinetic, or legal means) In the case of Ukraine, this is very unlikely to happen at any significant scale. However in other cases, the last couple of years makes it all too li= kely to happen. and back on my soapbox In my opinion, this is why we need multiple such satellite networks, contro= lled by different countries. The last century has shown us that no matter how mu= ch they try, the powers that be cannot completely cut off all the communicatio= n if the people wanting to communicate are determined enough. But in the process= of trying, they will hurt a LOT of innocent people David Lang On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Mike Puchol wrote: > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:00:03 +0300 > From: Mike Puchol > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net= , Ulrich Speidel > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we are in murky waters. Tak= e toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktails, does it become class= ified as a weapon? Or in fact, anything that can aid one of the sides in th= eir fight, including food and medical supplies. > > Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, =93why do you provide internet = in slums, don=92t they need like, food, clean water, healtcare, before inte= rnet?=94. > > The answer to that is two-pronged. First, we are good at =93doing interne= t=94, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actually employs hun= dreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides unlimited broadband i= nternet to underprivileged communities at affordable prices. We don=92t kno= w how to =93do" clean water or healthcare, so we try to make an impact with= what we know. > > Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a report,= which stated: > > "The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative nature = of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise their right to f= reedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of other human rights, a= nd to promote the progress of society as a whole=94. > > Many news outlets picked on this to conclude =93The UN declares internet = a basic human right=94 - which is not what the report says (full text here:= https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27= _en.pdf). W= hat it does say is it can enable the right to freedom of opinion and expres= sion, something which Russia is trying to shut down, both in Ukraine and in= Russia itself, applying sanctions to those who disseminate =93non-official= =94 information. > > Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can restore = connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits that outweig= h the possibility that they get used for military comms or such. > > Best, > > Mike > On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich Speidel , wrote: >> Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a result = of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would be a Ru= ssian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a civilian n= ot involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect approach from = a party in the conflict this week to provide resources for cyber-warriors, = and have politely declined and informed our university's chief information = security officer, whose response to me was that he would have been a lot le= ss polite than me. >> A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Ukraine = have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to Western= Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it through the= territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days when Uk= raine was part of the USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas customer, always = found their Russian business partners to be reliable and faithful to contra= cts signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of Essen, and dea= lt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas company and the USS= R's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the former CEO). When= the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with another transit cou= ntry along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being supplied at rates they w= ould nominate. Russia was faced with a choice between supplying Ukraine for= cheap or losing its ability to supply Western Europe. That's why they want= ed the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. After years of multi-party negotiat= ions with the US trying to talk Germany out of saying yes to the pipeline, = the Germans were left with the impression that US insistence was in no smal= l parts motivated by them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europe. >> None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but maybe a = reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable for a s= imple good-bad scheme. >> I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preserve con= nectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be in sca= le, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to support inn= ocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any use for= the pursuit of hostilities and any risks to those using it. >> On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote: >>> I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine context= here. >>> >>> However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "military operatio= ns" context. >>> It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair military com= manders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more att= acks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided). >>> >>> Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? Is that w= hat he wants? >>> >>> So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any politic= al persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want to incinerate= ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail? >>> >>> Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other t= han the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, Kill, Kill,= Kill for Peace" >>> >>> This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by disco= nnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the people living = there from accessing PayPal, etc. >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.n= et said: >>> >>>> Send Starlink mailing list submissions to >>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom@evslin.com) >>>> 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) >>>> 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) >>>> 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500 >>>> From: >>>> To: "'Nathan Owens'" , "'Da= vid Lang'" >>>> >>>> Cc: >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>>> >>>> I=92ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconferencing al= tho we >>>> now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on th= e call but >>>> not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present AN= D I had a >>>> choice, I wouldn=92t use Starlink when critical >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Starlink On Behalf Of Nathan >>>> Owens >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM >>>> To: David Lang >>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I als= o finally >>>> recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while wi= th no >>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other particip= ants) >>>> >>>> David Lang >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>> >>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>> down. >>>>> >>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, it'd= be >>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy= test at >>>> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" >>>> >>>> on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlin= ks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdF= rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhtt= ps*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNj= Ve0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_= 5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> > >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) >>>> From: David Lang >>>> To: Nathan Owens >>>> Cc: David Lang , Dave Taht , >>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht= .net >>>> --te=3Dupload_streams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht= .net >>>> --te=3Ddownload_streams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht= .net >>>> --te=3Dupload_streams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht= .net >>>> --te=3Ddownload_streams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht= .net -t >>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: >>>> >>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>>> >>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I al= so >>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while = with >>>>>> no >>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other >>>> participants) >>>>>> >>>>>> David Lang >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>>>> down. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>>>> w= rote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, >>>> it'd be >>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the ea= sy >>>> test >>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" < >>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlin= ks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdF= rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhtt= ps*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNj= Ve0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_= 5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) >>>> From: David Lang >>>> To: David Lang >>>> Cc: Nathan Owens , Dave Tah= t , >>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" >>>> >>>> and the irtt >>>> >>>> irtt client --dscp=3D0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote: >>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.tah= t.net >>>>> --te=3Dupload_streams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.tah= t.net >>>>> --te=3Ddownload_streams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.tah= t.net >>>>> --te=3Dupload_streams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.tah= t.net >>>>> --te=3Ddownload_streams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.tah= t.net -t >>>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I a= lso >>>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while >>>> with >>>>>>> no >>>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other >>>>>>> participants) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>>>>> down. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>>>>> = wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over >>>> Starlink, it'd be >>>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the >>>> easy >>>>>>> test >>>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" >>>> < >>>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlin= ks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdF= rivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhtt= ps*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNj= Ve0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_= 5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000 >>>> From: Larry Press >>>> To: Mike Puchol , Dave Taht= , >>>> David Lang >>>> Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"windows-1252" >>>> >>>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the= effort >>>> required to strike. >>>> >>>> The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and journalist= s to >>>> communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high, ma= king the >>>> terminals attractive targets for the Russians. >>>> >>>> The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- Ukraine = is large and >>>> the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without re-regis= tration in >>>> California/Nevada >>>> (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roamin= g). If >>>> SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in Uk= raine. >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Starlink on behalf of Mike >>>> Puchol >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM >>>> To: Dave Taht ; David= Lang >>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> >>>> Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so many= people who >>>> know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger at,= so I really >>>> appreciate it. >>>> >>>> On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has evolved = massively >>>> over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by Ru= ssia with a >>>> missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included deco= ding the >>>> speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. >>>> >>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the = effort >>>> required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular networks= , decrypt >>>> the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & strike. = The same >>>> happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an air= craft high >>>> enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground and t= he >>>> satellite. >>>> >>>> With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detect &= locate the >>>> 4.5=BA wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves - this= can be >>>> done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to find the sour= ce. You must >>>> also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable enough = to justify a >>>> strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good enough= SNR to >>>> demodulate, then you=92d need to decrypt. Doing this in real time on a= n >>>> airborne platform is quite a challenge. >>>> >>>> Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any form = of radio >>>> comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly str= ike any >>>> source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being targete= d by just >>>> using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the mil= itary, and >>>> Russia then assumes Starlink =3D military target. We=92re far from any= clear >>>> scenario, so we need to wait & see. >>>> >>>> A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the Starl= ink uplink >>>> band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the in= vasion >>>> began, so he didn=92t get a chance to do any analysis on the TX side o= f the >>>> terminal. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang , wrote: >>>> a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlink d= ishes >>>> >>>> 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather direction= al, so >>>> they aren't great targets. >>>> >>>> 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fired at them,= and are >>>> being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably more= missles >>>> in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory) >>>> >>>> direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a th= reat, but >>>> the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is why t= he dishes >>>> need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training to b= e good at >>>> direction finding on weak and intermittent signals. >>>> >>>> David Lang >>>> >>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>> >>>> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500 >>>> From: Dave Taht >>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> >>>> It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with >>>> us, also, on this list. >>>> >>>> https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org >>>> >>>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> > >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 >>>> *************************************** >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >> -- >> **************************************************************** >> Dr. Ulrich Speidel >> >> School of Computer Science >> >> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >> >> The University of Auckland >> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz >> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >> **************************************************************** >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** --_000_BYAPR03MB3863BA53D4B5EFCB16840FD7C2059BYAPR03MB3863namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Starlink can't muster anywhe= re near enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana&n= bsp;

But it can serve the leaders of government and the resistance in communicating= with each other and the outside world if normal connectivity becomes unava= ilable.

From: Starlink <starlink= -bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Ulrich Speidel <u.speide= l@auckland.ac.nz>
Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 1:44 AM
To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>; Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.= sx>
Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6
 

Got you there David, and didn't really mean your contribution in the who= le situation. As you point out, anything in comms in inherently dual use.

And I think we do have a duty to warn if we see that technology that's o= ut there might become a risk to those who choose to use it.

In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least = for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite= capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana that's surrounded by gate= ways close by, then it's not going to be replacing the Internet as we know it in a country 60% larger in area= and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide some ba= ckup in a relatively small number of places.

Another perspective yet: So far, international experience shows that the= Internet is remarkably robust when it comes to powers that be wanting to s= hut it down. It's designed to route around holes and cuts. Unless you depen= d on a small number of identifiable fibre cables out, like Tonga does, it's pretty difficult to cut you off co= mpletely. I very much doubt that anyone has a complete may of fibre routes = in the Ukraine, let alone the Russians. There'll probably be people out the= re near the borders to Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland - and probably even to Russia - stringing cla= ndestine fibre cables across in order to add resilience to their networks. = There'll also be countless people within Ukraine's border regions who have = mobile connectivity into their neighbouring countries that can be put to good use transparently. We're talking about a= pretty tech-savvy population here... Add wi-fi and a large number of satel= lite TV dishes into the mix, and you'll get my drift.

But even so, Russia doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to disru= pt the Internet in Ukraine, at least not just yet. Why? Maybe because the a= ssumption that the Internet works against them isn't true from their perspe= ctive. Say you're in Kyiv. Hearing on the grapevine that Kherson has fallen to the Russians may be one thing,= easily dismissed as war propaganda. Actually seeing pictures from the city= and getting the local perspective from people you know is far more likely = to make you think that your own resistance may be futile. It all feeds into the hype and panic, and create= s a fertile ground for misinformation and fake news, while giving a perfect= platform for Russia to communicate with its own units in the field. I woul= dn't be at all surprised if a lot of them used Ukranian SIM cards on their phones. I know there's already be= en a drive among Ukrainian mobile operators to get people to report capture= d phones so they can be deactivated.

On 4/03/2022 9:41 pm, David Lang wrote:
There isn't a method of communication (or for tha= t matter, any other tool that
I'm aware of) that _can't_ be put to some military use (including the arts)=

If you want to make sure that an invention can never be used for military <= br> purposes, the only way to prevent it is to not invent it (and hope nobody e= lse
does), otherwise the best you can do is to give your favored users a head s= tart.

So if being quite about a technology isn't going to stop bad guys from (ab)= using
it, then the answer is to get the info out there so that the good guys will= know
how to use it.

This discussion started with me providing an alternate view to one of the n= ews
articles that are circulating that say that using a starlink in Ukrane is <= br> painting yourself to be a target. I may be wrong (I've been wrong before, I= will
be wrong again), but I think it's a topic worth discussion in the open, not= just
in military circles.


getting off my soapbox for a couple paragraphs


As for Starlink, since it doesn't require local infrastructure, it's going = to be
used by those who are opposed to those who are controlling said infrastruct= ure,
and the only way those controlling the infrastructure can actually prevent = it
(other than by making people too afraid to use it, which does not have a tr= ack
record of long-term success) is to attack the starlink infrastructure (via =
cyber, kinetic, or legal means)

In the case of Ukraine, this is very unlikely to happen at any significant =
scale. However in other cases, the last couple of years makes it all too li= kely
to happen.


and back on my soapbox

In my opinion, this is why we need multiple such satellite networks, contro= lled
by different countries. The last century has shown us that no matter how mu= ch
they try, the powers that be cannot completely cut off all the communicatio= n if
the people wanting to communicate are determined enough. But in the process= of
trying, they will hurt a LOT of innocent people

David Lang

On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Mike Puchol wrote:

> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:00:03 +0300
> From: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6
>
> IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we are in murky waters. = Take toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktails, does it become cl= assified as a weapon? Or in fact, anything that can aid one of the sides in= their fight, including food and medical supplies.
>
> Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, =93why do you provide intern= et in slums, don=92t they need like, food, clean water, healtcare, before i= nternet?=94.
>
> The answer to that is two-pronged. First, we are good at =93doing inte= rnet=94, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actually employs = hundreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides unlimited broadban= d internet to underprivileged communities at affordable prices. We don=92t know how to =93do" clean water or he= althcare, so we try to make an impact with what we know.
>
> Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a repo= rt, which stated:
>
> "The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative= nature of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise their ri= ght to freedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of other human r= ights, and to promote the progress of society as a whole=94.
>
> Many news outlets picked on this to conclude =93The UN declares intern= et a basic human right=94 - which is not what the report says (full text he= re: https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.H= RC.17.27_en.pdf). What it does say is it can enable the right to freedom of opinion and expr= ession, something which Russia is trying to shut down, both in Ukraine and = in Russia itself, applying sanctions to those who disseminate =93non-offici= al=94 information.
>
> Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can resto= re connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits that outw= eigh the possibility that they get used for military comms or such.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>, wrote:
>> Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a r= esult of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would b= e a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a civi= lian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect approach from a party in the conflict this we= ek to provide resources for cyber-warriors, and have politely declined and = informed our university's chief information security officer, whose respons= e to me was that he would have been a lot less polite than me.
>> A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Uk= raine have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to W= estern Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it throu= gh the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days when Ukraine was part of the USSR. German= y, as Russia's main gas customer, always found their Russian business partn= ers to be reliable and faithful to contracts signed (my father was a commer= cial lawyer in the city of Essen, and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas company and= the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the former CE= O). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with another tra= nsit country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being supplied at rates they would nominate. Russia wa= s faced with a choice between supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its abi= lity to supply Western Europe. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pip= eline so badly. After years of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out of saying yes to the p= ipeline, the Germans were left with the impression that US insistence was i= n no small parts motivated by them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europ= e.
>> None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but ma= ybe a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable f= or a simple good-bad scheme.
>> I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preser= ve connectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be = in scale, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to suppo= rt innocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any use for the pursuit of hostilities and= any risks to those using it.
>> On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote:
>>> I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukrain= e context here.
>>>
>>> However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "mil= itary operations" context.
>>> It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair mil= itary commanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is= more attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided).
>>>
>>> Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? = Is that what he wants?
>>>
>>> So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of an= y political persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want to i= ncinerate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail?
>>>
>>> Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peac= e other than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peac= e, Kill, Kill, Kill for Peace"
>>>
>>> This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia= by disconnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the peopl= e living there from accessing PayPal, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said:
>>>
>>>> Send Starlink mailing list submissions to
>>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<= br> >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' = to
>>>> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more= specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom@evslin.com) >>>> 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang)
>>>> 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang)
>>>> 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------= ------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500
>>>> From: <tom@evslin.com>
>>>> To: "'Nathan Owens'" <nathan@nathan.io>, "'David Lang'"
>>>> <david@lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> I=92ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for telecon= ferencing altho we
>>>> now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the= worst on the call but
>>>> not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid t= o present AND I had a
>>>> choice, I wouldn=92t use Starlink when critical
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Nathan
>>>> Owens
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM
>>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great= .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measure= ments? I also finally
>>>> recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm=
>>>> <mailto:david@lang.hm> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls fo= r a while with no
>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the ot= her participants)
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec interval= s, induced
>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput = relative to
>>>>> down.
>>>>>
>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason
>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing o= ver Starlink, it'd be
>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as = via the easy test at
>>>> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dav= e Taht"
>>>> <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat= .net
>>>> <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>>>> dave.taht@gmail.com &l= t;mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zo= omready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivre= jHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-= zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFriv= rejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*3A= *2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0Tt= EsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$
>>>> <https://= urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fwww= .icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJT= yNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink= __;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN= 2sj_SP7yVhg$
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__ht= tps:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9= xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL:
>>>> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/piperma= il/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST)
>>>> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>> To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>
>>>> Cc: David Lang <david@lang.hm>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>,
>>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; For= mat=3D"flowed"
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.s= tarlink.taht.net
>>>> --te=3Dupload_streams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.s= tarlink.taht.net
>>>> --te=3Ddownload_streams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.s= tarlink.taht.net
>>>> --te=3Dupload_streams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup
>>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.s= tarlink.taht.net
>>>> --te=3Ddownload_streams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown >>>>
>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.s= tarlink.taht.net -t
>>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are g= reat.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent mea= surements? I also
>>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attache= d.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom = calls for a while with
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side v= s the other
>>>> participants)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec = intervals, induced
>>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload thr= oughput relative to
>>>>>>> down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jaso= n
>>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video confer= encing over Starlink,
>>>> it'd be
>>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - = such as via the easy
>>>> test
>>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behal= f of Dave Taht" <
>>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of
>>>> dave.taht@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zo= omready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivre= jHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few ti= mes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*3A= *2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0Tt= EsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink= __;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN= 2sj_SP7yVhg$
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________= _
>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST)
>>>> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>,
>>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; For= mat=3D"flowed"
>>>>
>>>> and the irtt
>>>>
>>>> irtt client --dscp=3D0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.tah= t.net
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremo= nt.starlink.taht.net
>>>>> --te=3Dupload_streams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup
>>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremo= nt.starlink.taht.net
>>>>> --te=3Ddownload_streams=3D1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown<= br> >>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremo= nt.starlink.taht.net
>>>>> --te=3Dupload_streams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup >>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremo= nt.starlink.taht.net
>>>>> --te=3Ddownload_streams=3D8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndow= n
>>>>>
>>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=3D.05 --socket-stats -H fremo= nt.starlink.taht.net -t
>>>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime a= re great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent= measurements? I also
>>>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, att= ached.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work z= oom calls for a while
>>>> with
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my si= de vs the other
>>>>>>> participants)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Lang
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 = sec intervals, induced
>>>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload= throughput relative to
>>>>>>>> down.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, = Jason
>>>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video co= nferencing over
>>>> Starlink, it'd be
>>>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that tim= e - such as via the
>>>> easy
>>>>>>> test
>>>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on b= ehalf of Dave Taht"
>>>> <
>>>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of
>>>> dave.taht@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zo= omready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivre= jHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a fe= w times:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*3A= *2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0Tt= EsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________________= _________
>>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink= __;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN= 2sj_SP7yVhg$
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000
>>>> From: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu>
>>>> To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>,
>>>> David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outl= ook.com>
>>>>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"windows-1252&quo= t;
>>>>
>>>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the= target vs. the effort
>>>> required to strike.
>>>>
>>>> The value of allowing government and resistance leaders an= d journalists to
>>>> communicate with each other and the outside world seems qu= ite high, making the
>>>> terminals attractive targets for the Russians.
>>>>
>>>> The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high= -- Ukraine is large and
>>>> the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming with= out re-registration in
>>>> California/Nevada
>>>> (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roamin= g). If
>>>> SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the= users in Ukraine.
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Mike
>>>> Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM
>>>> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>; David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list = with so many people who
>>>> know way more than I do, about any subject I could point m= y finger at, so I really
>>>> appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis = has evolved massively
>>>> over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was = killed by Russia with a
>>>> missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which i= ncluded decoding the
>>>> speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right = target.
>>>>
>>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the tar= get vs. the effort
>>>> required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellu= lar networks, decrypt
>>>> the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically targe= t & strike. The same
>>>> happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellit= e, so an aircraft high
>>>> enough will be in the path between a large portion of the = ground and the
>>>> satellite.
>>>>
>>>> With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able= to detect & locate the
>>>> 4.5=BA wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly = moves - this can be
>>>> done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to f= ind the source. You must
>>>> also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valu= able enough to justify a
>>>> strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a= good enough SNR to
>>>> demodulate, then you=92d need to decrypt. Doing this in re= al time on an
>>>> airborne platform is quite a challenge.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone usi= ng any form of radio
>>>> comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just= blindly strike any
>>>> source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid b= eing targeted by just
>>>> using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get use= d by the military, and
>>>> Russia then assumes Starlink =3D military target. We=92re = far from any clear
>>>> scenario, so we need to wait & see.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned = to the Starlink uplink
>>>> band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days b= efore the invasion
>>>> began, so he didn=92t get a chance to do any analysis on t= he TX side of the
>>>> terminal.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>> On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david@lang.hm>, wrote:
>>>> a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired a= t starlink dishes
>>>>
>>>> 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rath= er directional, so
>>>> they aren't great targets.
>>>>
>>>> 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fi= red at them, and are
>>>> being produced at a much higher rate (although there are p= robably more missles
>>>> in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inven= tory)
>>>>
>>>> direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be = more of a threat, but
>>>> the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (wh= ich is why the dishes
>>>> need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of t= raining to be good at
>>>> direction finding on weak and intermittent signals.
>>>>
>>>> David Lang
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500
>>>> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine
>>>>
>>>> It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his ins= ights with
>>>> us, also, on this list.
>>>>
>>>> https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenew= s.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RB= U2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org<https://urldefense.com= /v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;J= SUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cN= klRuLosonTw6dgoHU$>
>>>>
>>>> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5= SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5= SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6
>>>> ***************************************
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
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>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>
>> --
>> **************************************************************** >> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>>
>> School of Computer Science
>>
>> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>>
>> The University of Auckland
>> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
>> **************************************************************** >>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> 
-- =0A=
****************************************************************=0A=
Dr. Ulrich Speidel=0A=
=0A=
School of Computer Science=0A=
=0A=
Room 303S.594 (City Campus)=0A=
=0A=
The University of Auckland=0A=
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz =0A=
http://ww=
w.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/=0A=
****************************************************************=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
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