From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.taht.net (mail.taht.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00:e000:2d4:f00f:f00f:b33b:b33b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA4153B29E for ; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 14:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2600:380:c057:dc20:f125:9a7c:900a:876a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.taht.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C0D522976; Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:18:50 +0000 (UTC) From: Dave Taht Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_48C50562-997B-4ECB-8947-B558DC334F3B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 11:18:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3770C0CE-88EB-46D4-88ED-ADE09E247D37@searls.com> Cc: Dave Taht , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net To: Doc Searls References: <20160.1624287984@localhost> <3770C0CE-88EB-46D4-88ED-ADE09E247D37@searls.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Subject: [Starlink] Q X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2021 18:18:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_48C50562-997B-4ECB-8947-B558DC334F3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 dear doc: great article, thx, he=E2=80=99s already most of the way to the right = page. Can you introduce us off list? one hope is we do failover better using the mwan3 tool in openwrt = instead of relying on ping but the supplied statistics.=20 Another is to get the starwrt codebase up on the supplied router. We = already have plenty of qcom IPQ8014 routers under test in openwrt = mainline, which is the chipset the starlink router is based on=E2=80=A6. =E2=80=A6 but most of our new work had shifted over the mt76 chipsets = and the higher end armada platfoems and there are three large things = involving aql, wifi retries, and cake left to make work on the ath10k = derived stuff that I=E2=80=99d hoped would make the final build... public work over here stopped a while back, but we can resume. https://forum.openwrt.org/t/aql-and-the-ath10k-is-lovely/59002 > On Jun 22, 2021, at 6:20 PM, Doc Searls wrote: >=20 > When you come on FLOSS Weekly, Jonathan here will be my co-host: >=20 > https://hackaday.com/2021/05/24/starlink-a-review-and-some-hacks/ = >=20 > Never mind that he doesn't know about bufferbloat on Starlink. He'll = get it. And he's a great dude. You should loop him in. He can be = helpful. So can his minions. >=20 > Doc >=20 >> On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Dave Taht > wrote: >>=20 >> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 8:47 AM Dave Taht > wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 8:06 AM Michael Richardson > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Dave Taht > wrote: >>>>> It came up recently that a lot of folk don't like the idea of = dropping >>>>> packets as a congestion >>>>> control mechanism. Like loss or not... the fundamental paper on = this >>>>> subject is Van Jacobson and Mike Karels: >>>>=20 >>>>> "On congestion avoidance and control" >>>>=20 >>>>> http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs244/papers/CongestionControl.pdf = >>>>=20 >>>> I saved this post a long time ago. >>>> http://www.sandelman.ca/mcr/humour/vanj-enet-posting.txt = >>=20 >> =46rom that piece: >>=20 >> "funding agents looking for high speed, >> next-generation networks may forget that research to make slow >> things go fast sometimes makes fast things go faster". >>=20 >> Recently I dusted off fq_codel_fast in light of the cache misses >> finally showing up >> in a 100gbit dual bonded scenario over here: >>=20 >> = https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/netdev/net-next.git/commit= /?id=3D848ca9182a7d25bb54955c3aab9a3a2742bf9678 = >>=20 >> asked the author to give it a try. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> That was a *great* piece of history thx. And he referenced greg >>> chesson's work on XTP, >>> ( https://grainger.illinois.edu/alumni/distinguished/9560 = ) >>>=20 >>> Greg was an early consultant to the bufferbloat project... >>> he sadly passed before we ever had a chance to jam together. >>>=20 >>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D9795462 = >>>=20 >>>> There is another one about how he crashed Interop, which I don't = know where I >>>> put. >>>=20 >>> More folk should have seen van's codel preso at ietf 84. It was the >>> very very early days of webrtc. >>>=20 >>> https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [ >>>> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT = architect [ >>>> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Latest Podcast: >>> = https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ >>>=20 >>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Latest Podcast: >> = https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ = >>=20 >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_48C50562-997B-4ECB-8947-B558DC334F3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
dear doc:

great = article, thx, he=E2=80=99s already most of the way to the right page. = Can you introduce us off list?

one hope is we do failover better using the mwan3 tool in = openwrt instead of relying on ping but the supplied = statistics. 

Another is to get the starwrt codebase up on the supplied = router. We already have plenty of qcom IPQ8014 routers under test in openwrt mainline, = which is the chipset the starlink router is based = on=E2=80=A6.

=E2=80=A6 but most of our new work had shifted over the mt76 = chipsets and the higher end armada platfoems and there are three large = things involving aql, wifi retries, and cake left to make work on the = ath10k derived stuff that I=E2=80=99d hoped would make the final = build...

public = work over here stopped a while back, but we can resume.

https://forum.openwrt.org/t/aql-and-the-ath10k-is-lovely/59002<= /a>

On Jun 22, 2021, at 6:20 PM, Doc Searls = <doc@searls.com> wrote:

When you come on FLOSS = Weekly, Jonathan here will be my co-host:

https://hackaday.com/2021/05/24/starlink-a-review-and-some-hack= s/

Never = mind that he doesn't know about bufferbloat on Starlink. He'll get it. = And he's a great dude. You should loop him in. He can be helpful. So can = his minions.

Doc

On Jun 21, 2021, at 11:56 AM, = Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 8:47 AM = Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 = at 8:06 AM Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>= wrote:
It came up = recently that a lot of folk don't like the idea of dropping
packets as a congestion
control mechanism. Like = loss or not... the fundamental paper on this
subject is = Van Jacobson and Mike Karels:

"On congestion avoidance = and control"

http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs244/papers/CongestionControl.pd= f

I saved this post a long = time ago.
http://www.sandelman.ca/mcr/humour/vanj-enet-posting.txt

=46rom that piece:

"funding agents looking for high speed,
next-generation networks may = forget that research to make slow
things go fast sometimes makes fast things go = faster".

Recently I = dusted off fq_codel_fast in light of the cache misses
finally showing up
in a 100gbit dual bonded = scenario over here:

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/netdev/net-next= .git/commit/?id=3D848ca9182a7d25bb54955c3aab9a3a2742bf9678

asked the author to give it a = try.





That = was a *great* piece of history thx. And he referenced greg
chesson's work on XTP,
( https://grainger.illinois.edu/alumni/distinguished/9560 = )

Greg was an early consultant to the = bufferbloat project...
he sadly passed before we ever had = a chance to jam together.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D9795462

There is = another one about how he crashed Interop, which I don't know where I
put.

More folk = should have seen van's codel preso at ietf 84. It was the
very very early days of webrtc.

https://archive.org/details/video1_20191129

--
] =             &n= bsp; Never tell me the odds! =             &n= bsp;   | ipv6 mesh networks [
] =   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works =        |    IoT = architect   [
] =     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/ =        |   ruby on rails =    [





--
Latest Podcast:
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284= 936785920/

Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, = LLC



--
Latest = Podcast:
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284= 936785920/

Dave T=C3=A4ht = CTO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

= --Apple-Mail=_48C50562-997B-4ECB-8947-B558DC334F3B--