From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5630E3B29E for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 07:23:58 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1681989835; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=1OKwc+VpOY1SJGQ49ZjTeF5xFR105lxWbxslpTTQrl8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=fjy9x5AVCNew3DfNRFfVe3v4ZqNHw7Dovd50ipoFeYDTAagD5gNVrchfmoudkm8aM 710KEdSEo9G+aooCiSVZf/6r08U11my7WMN/lQRX+P7jVci70hIusgZdMVgzf/kmxZ ZNf3PkcKOQqV92CfMudED2lhO0uUf5d5veo3p26nuOmHj8Bp74P0sU6YxbWyOG82c5 lnTqil7raewv+ZBr4DjYclQo38vaK60GOL1aCg6h7Opo04KFLhESHyuLIYIhfTGQpN t0LnX/VFBiIoSm6o169ZmulzzRSU43eg+7KRzQAaTzowo8F4CmpSiCG0taE4ex7Zah c7gWPus8xNE4A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([95.119.148.135]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mj8mV-1qU2TW246X-00f9KZ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 13:23:55 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.3\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 13:23:52 +0200 Cc: Daniel Schien , starlink , Vint Cerf , e-impact@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1272.1681406523@localhost> <8151.1681416108@localhost> <24341.1681947286@localhost> <4f0fa01d97325$3f72e9a0$be58bce0$@evslin.com> To: Hesham ElBakoury X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.3) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:f+bkORFjta3yW8/KypO+nTgX8M3MC9EzW1BlJLlbT/mcR59e6p7 Hb7pdbhWwnscELhbBrQ6KdMl5JxBZX9QhN3J1N1N1doPGBnjQZ0jQvP+T8z/2tBO4DXbUW2 hPcqtni2UeYiIs3RnfOGT99IehCQjTwZPYz5U5MR2bnH7/+gEnPtMvo7jl6/Pjta9fYIBCm C6AEGybbmlOT0UkFufTvw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:IzXZuwVGw/o=;B2b7/LUqNCT7ROQkEkX5QicSUPh hjuOe5Gab4+ajDhJ2ZHb0uh7bWkcpJIkkv1t1ODqkL5lo9LHZGPOS1ODRjmlUlR7IWh10ca7H l/XFiN6IgRy8ON9EgvXMWMfrsGoqecQTepqyWncw9AxLvk1IkTNXWLHAjM755KnzwMcwd3c/q 1TKYOyaBUdmyemjj77QMoSK9IEeU2fQUBXIcWJIsNVM6QomAk+sIKtqPIfh0xyJ2Ea52iCp3S +ooFC0dyvMBFG82iFkqR6tKH3EXu4I0OOqC46ltPI0EwjsQHdQYnIDfRMs2hfMn0rKp10miIK 9T17Y0bHCbPIWgnBGBS3XwiGBlXLsK/BBpchp6N8XtvZIQl53C+RiFhGUIphxVTQVMzowIncF FSnfsJv6W07/XnGc8sOHG2LnB6slEQx0c5LNoigWMiRK9a6QI7mPjoHQHZCfOygjIQ2u8Jy+8 4iNLG5Kv0ZFQZyOX0/MCZLEvEznDo13Ztm3eoLaFjYwBIKY541CFLHWe6RCgfq50ayt0dLg/B ILFAwZnqxxdp3IUlE4a8yuKFAWYiijlnQxItH1pLpDZXPA9ZI6Qt9VJ3ijwrn6fqGZlNLDI3n +T0RoRw5Rl/WOamYJQEUPcmlrq3ilbha7OpxaM7NQtUo78akjaiae0nZic1/C1OxmIR2eu1l+ cgSYPxrfKwu+hPyigPnAEJ3gfbeYvinIqHz8yl9NId1eUg7qO6e/cpXbwOcqvY4wlWkoW8M2k HiOn7C6/cDTbIKIX6WFRanGHMk1GnpFWTdla83YVSaCMlrMN2qeloQ++Fw/rtC3t/zru5LLV1 v9T/P/Yc2m8bOvUJYSf0ehSUZtxKgvoNo65EdUW5/LC8wOVy9DkxxTWWteaF+BdpmztL18UJt 60LLQ3OvPOZLVBp4RT+MpYMvbjaKWMQUZxlasMYgkn3PwuXx6pE1XOm8kTnj34iurTXYKh/MP gpNZ0XDacHcz67eQvpr6CYNjzII= Subject: Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 11:23:58 -0000 Hi Hesham, the problem is not primarily the temperature of space, but the fact that = computers tend to produce heat themselves that needs to be deposed off = and vacuum makes a hell of a thermal isolator... so essentially I think = you need to radiate your heat out as infrared light, no convection = possible. I am with Ulrich on this, the economics of this do not look favorable, = except maybe for a few applications where being closer to the end points = (or the satellites themselves) matter enormously. Regards Sebastian > On Apr 20, 2023, at 13:10, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > The article about the ASCEND project says: > "Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the = need for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A = significant part of a data center=E2=80=99s energy use is for cooling = equipment, accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures = can be as low as -292=C2=B0F (-180=C2=B0C) when an orbiting object is in = the Earth=E2=80=99s shadow." >=20 > Hesham >=20 > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien = wrote: > I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the = time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up = with them.=20 >=20 > I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.=20 >=20 > Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite = payload: >=20 > "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 = launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with = a re-usable rocket." >=20 > Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a = fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight. >=20 > The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong: >=20 > "Data centers are big energy consumers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of = all global consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling every year." >=20 > The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of = 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total = (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. = That's just completely wrong. >=20 >=20 > Daniel Schien > Senior Lecturer in Computer Science > Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol > Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022 >=20 > bris.ac.uk/software-engineering > Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI >=20 > Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB > Book a meeting: = https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki= >=20 > From: E-impact on behalf of Vint Cerf = > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM > To: tom@evslin.com > Cc: Michael Richardson ; starlink = ; e-impact@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber = IXPs in space) > =20 > O&M will be a bear > v >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink = wrote: > I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the = exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, = things have not happened as quickly as I predicted = https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-ro= admap.html >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Starlink On Behalf Of = Michael Richardson via Starlink > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM > To: starlink ; e-impact@ietf.org > Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) >=20 >=20 > I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight. > (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first = objective"! >=20 > = https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales= -alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data >=20 > Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint = company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the = European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for = European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for = data centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon Europe = research program. >=20 > Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is = becoming a major > challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data = centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential = pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact. >=20 > The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon = emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures = will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based = data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon = neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to = develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and = operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance = technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD = demonstrator. >=20 > This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based = data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their = ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of = Europe=E2=80=99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a = more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus = regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as = the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > +1 (571) 213 1346 >=20 >=20 > until further notice >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > E-impact mailing list > E-impact@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink