From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A7153B2A4 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2022 15:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id j26so7861118wms.0 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2022 12:04:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=ioFgCX3Vji4B5dRnGGCE+0LicFpf+seeM8A7xcIW7qU=; b=W27HcZswHOlKriCT1+D0PwJ1x/MX+J79vySNeW6ZFTqDm3Nk/9K7krBAkwn8EdA5xp EypTwOKo8MOmGSQhlrF/zt0XKBMn1qXu33DOZ5WpLCfXZMJ1RYEuULWsNWvG1jFJsBge 1iExt7Bsh9dJ8lvy32LWILDdDIw6ti+iEMGirNQN9J0/4b3vqHkUglwOveJ7vIf1idy0 nA4sN5C4QISRqw/MaS5fMpoO3E3kr4Jg0GViFJZHsjrGvq+p+x71ZYAoBZJDmweH/6K+ EZ1NKXANFL4HXOM0x038UX0jVhWg1ry0zvTPdw3wlKJUEVkk1zD5g/E6Xfg5/bMdWDAO q57Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=ioFgCX3Vji4B5dRnGGCE+0LicFpf+seeM8A7xcIW7qU=; b=nAgJiy6seyOxpR7n05+zzRxS3OEWmp7IREp7bYgx7aNBp2KXBE9pPiQx/D0VWwUgqv oDmGDfvYceP2PYEQY7bonwNU4Sx+tSd9l0UOMAoL+5bF9oo+sbjfaojDSE6ohPfniezC 641pA5AOsILg8R5/FTENhvLNJvEnBj8Hc38pYJ6Ko2ZcXtbksKCXJOSr3h+KJ334XKhN hAPWVf8/+T7bTIo7g3A098BlM5dS8vbBUo8p56m0xpaoe9mW2pcw5UcypYq8hr8lZ20d H51Jjd8lP7ImwhkQohdoDspHuVreI91nJ2eMft7S/7nu51cwt+1Ag28Dgm+HUHuisKSo o6Wg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo2DoINE0p0wd8OwegBaProsG9uTYhVtqYJ4ixGpfnI1RkiuDxZU iMGkgUWCSCjhQTjP8ZNCeXGo3M+KIOidlgGoxcN5i82QS28= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR7XAV+OQWiNlm83JdxAoIbdNUKew9f68IhwI4XUo6QatF8Xx0Ba4pVKKtQV4c1IN0j5UaLZciD3pyqfOp/WUw4= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:ce91:0:b0:3a7:b67c:888f with SMTP id q17-20020a7bce91000000b003a7b67c888fmr2919414wmj.187.1661972665326; Wed, 31 Aug 2022 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1661878433.14064713@apps.rackspace.com> <6p5n9262-3745-pq31-5636-1rnon987o255@ynat.uz> <20220830220710.GA2653@sunf10.rd.bbc.co.uk> <356psp-6n4s-5677-2qs9-1r71r492no@ynat.uz> <20220830223712.GA2921@sunf10.rd.bbc.co.uk> <1661902136.38824194@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1661902136.38824194@apps.rackspace.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 12:04:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: "David P. Reed" Cc: Brandon Butterworth , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "beam spread" X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 19:04:26 -0000 On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 4:28 PM David P. Reed via Starlink wrote: > > I wasn't starting a discussion about Starlink the business. I was talking= about Starlink the technology and the "dreams" that people project onto th= at technology. > > > > I'm happy if the current customers are happy and remain happy. Just point= ing out that there are pretty severe limitations in the physical capabiliti= es of the technology of the satellites and dishys that will limit how many = customers can be served in an area. > > > > I was reacting to the idea Dave Taht brought up that somehow the satellit= es can cover "more" area per satellite, if they go to a lower total bit rat= e (175 vs. 240 per antenna on each satellite). No, I'd started this excellent thread in admiration of mike's graphical and animation talents. Back when I had a house, I had all of tufte's work... A good picture, a good (and representative) analogy, is worth (with inflation) millions of words. Last night I was looking up at the stars for the first time in a while, hoping to get a glimpse of the starlink launch (nope - from half moon bay) and reflecting on an old piece I'd written on orbital resonance: http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2007/03/31-orbital-resonance-with-jupiter.html And yearning for that flash of insight that would explain better - for example, the inverse square law and how phased array antennas really work, and the cost of transiting the atmosphere at an increasing angle, and so many other things, including the economic model. I used to take rides on asteroids a lot using the celestial simulator, I wonder if that could be used to "see the view from the shells"... I note that I found mark handleys early animations really helpful in wrapping my head around how starlink might work, and he got it wrong twice - first using isl, then ground stations, and now this primary and backup beam concept that just went by on this list!! that makes huge amounts of sense (compared to using wifi retries) - I love it! I can see it in my head now! Bonus link: Epicycles. Lie flat on your back and think about those for a wh= ile: http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2005/09/epicycles.html?m=3D0 > > > > I'm a radio engineer, trained in stuff like phased array antenna designs,= and power, etc. I'm also a communications protocol engineer, trained in mu= ltiplexing techniques. > > > > I'm not saying Starlink engineers are incompetent, but I am saying that w= hat Musk (who despite the fact that he pretends to be an engineer is not on= e, never has been one) has described in his visionary speeches is not what = Starlink is delivering today, and that's because it basically can't be deli= vered. Every user of shared spectrum to date has always had their marketing people talk about early bandwidth and performance for their new tech... which was also destined to fade. didn't the press catch on for 3g, 4g, and 5g? > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_code= l/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC