From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDCEB3CB4F; Wed, 8 May 2024 11:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-41b79451153so35371665e9.2; Wed, 08 May 2024 08:35:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715182512; x=1715787312; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Rb+Xod0judeJCB+0I+7JqkFYuI+NPVIrjJ97rmv42xA=; b=WcmLkXA5SLNp+m6T38EwNmOSmyc9wVDgng1xKKwum3+sRBULRifUmahmuUZkZZOWqH xr0+M8Ah3TrvYSUQMz9sSVL+l4vikPHeSRyRCYS1cP9q5f3DDNiFJxZpLKA6C3x7h/UR RZVwPJL4UvBh3rGFHz3d9R2ITQT9nBjbYgvgbG+24mK9fS+s52kslCnlr9I4RKsOonNY 8YXlP/bJSSHJsDmVi3IjMe0gLGVxyxIRraWbtoLcVUZ0nb9br/6n2fW1ZcAQwsDgB63o Ioitc7RCCcsqprw+m1y7xCRWQmGPK70IMgSzDAYDV+ZkoZ1BosDtIuSusELR5Qz4/bNc DU4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715182512; x=1715787312; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Rb+Xod0judeJCB+0I+7JqkFYuI+NPVIrjJ97rmv42xA=; b=xNOCO5/Cmoy34vc0+Ez839mBEp2HuRbP1mATFza99AcE3dRWwg3ITsrTAhQIBQKopy fZnjxe6upjbuQ7NCPyv7GJ7WhxT87AEieAGnqepnZG0YvCEZy0PkTVkDXWo95Wiwc4SX 3mjQDfdGMkngJRoYkaVSOlj8efoqpHtu3ptTzodHd2m85nzAqZP+Xyxs1yr/LKv8BtRd xm7Vy3KIGsTvXdUq9ao1cQQnUbyDkk2/HiuwVi112mzY6Sg5djXZC/mRLqWKr8+NlFr8 M2qUjiAx8Q2HHcTDMH6bDqSq6iX2tOwkDIskZ9AqMTz2tMVKq8C2UCX7oAp9QtBMgkAP 2n+g== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUqvoQptKEWhE+yibaxTEDxfTskRrAeSiyzzJbOjFhxPQTYiyKRzzVNNt5xH/Kpxa50vfSF5VZg4ffupMpk7Qci8hDMjEkybfaOJT3fX2gvgOVdtbqmzuLB7WTK413DUIs30tqDY7Ox45NqAqf+rhp4sDXbc6/t7A/GJM8DYd9sZwpPQyvSNwFJqRenKPc7nwEl X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzumYg6diHqnul3BzZKX2jEbxg03xttQZpivk7h6ZC4AGEMm7l1 Dq4T2vxvx6rPahh1zKibcWRyHOLYwIA/7ZG88HsqIIBgmLVzftr+UaQi7wk91fc9XmssW9birQ+ M+qFPrrfI0abKWZcUVBEcDMAO++k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHMY//un7fIwa9UI1Kv8Z3yFiDoH6e70AJ6Fmzs5YSVB0VnT+EKJko6lr27zJR4/zqpjIYxF9Man0BAGA1BiOs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1da7:b0:41b:f5ea:e6fa with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-41f71acc37cmr25864675e9.10.1715182512268; Wed, 08 May 2024 08:35:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 08:35:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Livingood, Jason" Cc: Rich Brown , =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= , bloat , Dorothy Stanley , Make-Wifi-fast , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Starlink] bloat on wifi8 and 802.11 wg X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 15:35:14 -0000 I wish I had gone to the 802.11wg more regularly than I did. I only gave one bloat related presentation in 2014, shipped the make-wifi-fast code in 2016(?), and never went back. IETF ate all my money and time. I just assumed they were all in the slipstream of linux and openwrt. :/ I did have a great meetup a few weeks back with the former 802.11 chair (dorothy stanley, hi!!!) who is trying to recruit people to participate in the wifi8 standard and perhaps some finishing touches on wifi7. She gave a great update on the status of things at the recent wifinow conference, but as there is a cost to that, perhaps she can share her slides with us? https://wifinowglobal.com/product/wi-fi-world-congress-usa-2024-sarasota-fl= orida-presentations-pdf/?mc_cid=3Dbeb1b4a2ed&mc_eid=3D327a64ba92 On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Bloat wrote: > > Dropping Starlink as Bloat is the right list. The IEEE 802.11 domain is c= ertainly different than IP, so typical IP CCs don=E2=80=99t apply. In our L= 4S/NQB trials, we put LL-marked packets into the AC_VI WMM queue in the Wi-= Fi network. IMO there is more work in 802.11 to focus on latency =E2=80=93 = so much focus right now is on throughput over everything else. > > > > From: Starlink on behalf of Rich= Brown via Starlink > Reply-To: Rich Brown > Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 07:33 > To: David Fern=C3=A1ndez > Cc: starlink , bloat > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] L4S > > > > Let's split this thread and use this message to continue the discussion o= f L4S. Thanks > > > > On May 8, 2024, at 5:31 AM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: > > > > I see that L4S is not really solving everything (I read about issues with= Wi-Fi), although it seems to be a step in the right direction, to be impro= ved, let's hope. > > > > At least, Nokia is implementing it in its network gear (for mobile operat= ors), so the bufferbloat problem is somehow acknowledged by industry, at le= ast initially or partially. > > > > I have seen two consecutive RFCs to 9330: > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9331 > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9332 > > > > I suspect that optimal results require the bufferbloat to be addressed no= t only at network layer (IP), but also with some pipelining or cross-layeri= ng at link level (Ethernet, Wi-Fi or any other link technology, such as 5G,= SATCOM, VHF...) > > > > Regards, > > > > David F. > > > > Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 08:46:03 -0400 > > From: Dave Collier-Brown > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem > Message-ID: <3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@indexexchange.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" > > It has an RFC at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9330/ > > I read it as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the TC= P "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on it. > > I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more (;-)) > > --dave > > > > On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: > Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that gamers are happy with = it. > > Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish: > https://www.adslzone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vo= dafone > > Regards, > > David F. > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --=20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos