From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E44F43CB40; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:09:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id j24so16849370wrd.0; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 12:09:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680116949; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=rUmJwIoR6oCvQ5l0n63x7K7WXKTwMlqhebN4PGNTAkQ=; b=hDS97/F2Mogp/uhdc0I1C2WAV/8BVczd/yAwFRybh2BcsVf7MfhM1o/g4NbHbA30IN AHYT/gmJ6+4G8hUvlq1wbD0eT8aFKvQKyU3dtaLNlisK2DJj1P6KpSh2oSHsghDcaFyf xi1tMsZDH/UNINnnRuXQvbAXR6UIqJPK6YAhgKKCvsQ+Kc3D/SeHjG5X7tVKc5pnScWq Rma7fY/gt0Rud7o37DWd+Gh3Cd8441B27mX5sreOU7iB0kWbEx+eWe+J0vxjOLgfoT1i TksymPnSfkb/aWq+Qlmuodwg0rlyWDZfoFEjpyjSu0JLviJ+ciXPiUWDOxinCu1BCqAK bjhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680116949; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rUmJwIoR6oCvQ5l0n63x7K7WXKTwMlqhebN4PGNTAkQ=; b=b5L4EuMOBTzIPcrB+txWf9dXxP06CJOqZVI0/k/5hKjuI3zUFDIAZ+YQcRjhUwalgS gOukyJmWJLYOexk2FF2oQQf2bx1VAndgASmYN7ItE37MrJLpfn78aIW+FsfdwYZdlorm 22qfYZagY5gF0xtS8b/GOdd1stMCWtxfl+XjpLu3lU7fUE9UhV2G54IsQ51mvN5juUMP nUcEoN8ixk/PMvYXzszVvi/HMQXI97O43ZsvcyMeYJvzURTStmsZ4N1qKrIvFWRgYCB6 GTwl40vHPTpgH7FpgtJDrHWVUz5FPLIGMMUZynthR9xsWWs79Hub6q6e7+MfmWR5i5Wg X9Vw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eDO1fz9V5apN54cyVEaCWOkPgvmHPanzz0XH8SMJlYRnADlsa4 CXOuRUir8d5B5qEZeSZqybCim/y4StFKpVCk0v8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350Z2g8AnZa40eSO9kqiL5/qkpwTc1n9lpo27jU1t1atSU6E2fg7VTtb9zzx83ppuBRyXR2vLskroEi4e8PC9AwY= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e4d1:0:b0:2cf:e995:afef with SMTP id v17-20020adfe4d1000000b002cfe995afefmr4187097wrm.13.1680116948796; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 12:09:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> <829A9509-0B4D-438E-BB59-1592C0B27C98@gmail.com> <6aeb401d96271$038d5200$0aa7f600$@evslin.com> In-Reply-To: <6aeb401d96271$038d5200$0aa7f600$@evslin.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 12:08:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: tom@evslin.com Cc: Rich Brown , David Lang , Dave Taht via Starlink , dan , Dave Collier-Brown , libreqos , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 19:09:10 -0000 On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 12:02=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink wrote: > > What=E2=80=99s missing in this math is how much cheaper (and better) the = installation is if you displace or hang from the existing copper usually in= great position below the electricity and almost no makeready in this case.= Problem is getting rid of the almost but not quite unused copper plus owne= rship problems. I was on an FCC TAC which tried to plan for this 14 years a= go but came to nothing. What was the name of that? I have been trying to find a great talk by Henning Shulzerinne about the copper plant, that I think took place at IETF in the 2013? 2015? timeframe that so far I have had no luck in finding. Maybe I am remembering the wrong conference... Btw Henning is my nominee for the 5th FCC commissioner, if only we had a vote: see: https://twitter.com/mtaht/status/1640480264760741889 It really bothers me that STILL both the CTO for the USA and the CTO of the FCC, are only "acting". > > > Also could be burying fiber and electric with road repaving which is way = over-funded to increase reliability and decrease ongoing maintenance costs. > > > > From: Starlink On Behalf Of Rich= Brown via Starlink > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:46 PM > To: David Lang > Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink ; dan ; Dave Collier-Brown ; l= ibreqos ; bloat > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model > > > > > > On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:13 PM, David Lang via Starlink wrote: > > > > The problem is that laying cable (or provisioning wifi access to cover th= e area) is expensive, and if you try to have multiple different companies d= oing it, they each need a minimum density of users to make it worth their w= hile. > > > > Yes, this stuff is expensive, Here is reasonably current order-of-magnitu= de cost breakdown for a rural NH town nearby: > > > > 1) $55,000 per road-mile to design the system, get licenses to install on= the utility poles, "make ready" (to check that the poles are ready for new= facilities) and to hang the fiber on the pole. Installing coax would save = $5K to $8K per mile. > > > > 2) $2,000 to $4,000 per premise to install the drop from the utility pole= to the building, bring the fiber into the building and install the router. > > > > 3) Pole rental (in NH) is about $10/pole/year. Divide miles of road by 20= 0 feet between poles to get an estimate of the number of poles. > > > > So density of customers is critical for the business case. That's why the= re are so many monopoly providers - it's costly to overbuild an already ser= ved area. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 AMA March 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC