From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76B083CB41; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-28b012f93eeso707636a91.0; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:37:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702679838; x=1703284638; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=kiOGaQOurx8pWtiAUry1e/k4oZwp+VLcTQB4GJF+Y80=; b=iIN72tZPZ97rBjJyPb+ojFS4UVcc8UyZPOtrBH2X3izcA2gWEfR7EOBckP4CyJ6Th9 bZVK7C6Sutm7HQUrHJZEshzckWPs7aFm/CUVwPkT7lIKdIyXgO7Ofd2pS7fkN9h6aPd4 LaInzwSYpisQy1bX2wWv0bog+R6jOKfyIWfqbvL77d21JP4HbbfRFG8UDIEUtK9rxsI2 CrVhrQU2euJWfzWI1YwDw4WuLu4RKBw4yVDykASjWKwdhVXOhCpAeWGDu3P6C4c/I/7W vlHuL9pnlTpz8/Bx39HkEyRyIogsYcqDR6s7ct68GjwZc1pMsFY78XkFInb79bvQx1rl conw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702679838; x=1703284638; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kiOGaQOurx8pWtiAUry1e/k4oZwp+VLcTQB4GJF+Y80=; b=KTEg2ToVz0fYVPf3NHfy6RHka8zhnaQCVeEgv8u9KYx1LVlwc3KkM8vb51SP8tFkBI 3kx/gJcn2ccdq2LjvDrU3f8KJEgoCwto1HSXTxo9N6QAVy5N3TPPCEzSKkAHbIEk+9Yr f9HXwUmRq6f1XEOATcCguEbTPJ0mWSyVMOMWMTxKrf4nycbZpCa1zh7rfLROCwQLY+rw tLPbdNL6Y+Zuhr7Y5dXlFcCVO5MKH5hCQcYAKtUMeUeDNlOf/iDd13vbmUTvplcD+qqQ 8hJ2ykc45goBbiLmr4tZNf6zzlYMQoaUx43rUghdX3SZZuci4IwQaRJdvUYEz6abSGKu Irdw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx9DWRuWJ/VskyTeaPp+77A8PQoEX7bXFsmdNQu/xuZ7vJ1vezl F5gGf2vmWY9szqeRXrYZPphFt+5GX9GvCrXIu6fjjFIymME= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEKjSxJMjsgQwYg/UlgMMP8NkKomCUunW1Dtv8KeoCdqRyIOdKte4erCPfDVBehmVvPPw4vgfshHnoN9q8GKk4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:108e:b0:28b:187:2db with SMTP id gj14-20020a17090b108e00b0028b018702dbmr2298950pjb.82.1702679837959; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:37:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <55037f9a-bc2c-4bbb-a4bb-47ad30f16190@rjmcmahon.com> <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> <045p54s4-r8p3-o2s7-7qq2-r2p6o28ss7q1@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:36:20 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Cc: David Lang , "David Bray, PhD" , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 22:37:19 -0000 On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 2:13=E2=80=AFPM David Bray, PhD via Nnagain wrote: > > This GPT(human)bot was responding to the engineered prompt: >>why do you= think telehealth won't work over LEO services? > > As it's Friday, this GPT(human)bot bandwidth has been fully utilized for = the week. Our servers will be back-on line come Monday. > > Wishing everyone (human or machine) a wonderful weekend ahead! Sometimes the best way to value something is to get away from it for a while. I recommend everybody log off... maybe take a walk in the park, see some friends, make some music, visit a library, play golf, go fishing, spend time with your loved ones, fire up a card game... stop with the technology for a while and re-engage your other senses. The internet will still be here when you get back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DfMoPR2IA2Uk > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 5:10=E2=80=AFPM David Lang wrote: >> >> I don't disagree with anything that you say below, but the discussion wa= s on the >> topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to claiming= that we >> needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because of tele= health >> as well. >> >> I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are compa= red to >> in-person meetings. >> >> David Lang >> >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote: >> >> > There=E2=80=99s good evidence that physical health can be done over LE= O as long as >> > it isn=E2=80=99t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious list= serv founder >> > Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via >> > ground-based connections too. >> > >> > That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental h= ealth >> > services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regardle= ss of >> > LEO or not. The concern is two fold: >> > >> > * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a >> > patient developing a relationship with a health provider >> > >> > * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation. = One >> > might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the eviden= ce >> > showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there=E2=80=99= s actually a >> > continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted by= the >> > body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are friend= or >> > foe. Since we cannot see a person=E2=80=99s hands and body movements w= e don=E2=80=99t know >> > if they=E2=80=99re coming to attack us or not. >> > >> > So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls w= e >> > were literally messing with our brains=E2=80=99 own natural biological= processes? >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain < >> > nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> > >> >> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? >> >> >> >> I've used it personally. >> >> >> >> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that wom= en >> >> have any >> >> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth >> >> possible. >> >> >> >> David Lang >> >> >> >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >> >> >> >>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. Th= ey >> >> are >> >>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of th= e >> >>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be= . So >> >>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't w= ork >> >> over >> >>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance >> >> learning. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-pati= ents-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ >> >>> >> >>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should rema= in >> >> in >> >>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealt= h >> >> access >> >>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a >> >> growing >> >>> share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health ne= eds. >> >>> >> >>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume >> >> healthcare >> >>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to w= omen. >> >>> >> >>> Bob >> >>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet >> >>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to d= o >> >>>> with shipping bits around? >> >>>> >> >>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to = get >> >>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every >> >>>> house. >> >>>> >> >>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem we= re >> >>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agencie= s >> >>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? o= r >> >>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses fo= r >> >>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the larg= er >> >>>> population areas? >> >>>> >> >>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past >> >>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today. >> >>>> >> >>>> David Lang >> >>>> >> >>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Hi All, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electricit= y >> >>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health an= d >> >>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to follow= . >> >>>>> >> >>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm >> >>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We >> >> probably >> >>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best wo= rk >> >> for >> >>>>> our country and to be an example to the world. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill = =E2=80=93 no >> >>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford >> >> proper >> >>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth. Dur= ing >> >> the >> >>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a samplin= g of >> >>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 = had >> >>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, = were >> >>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult to = see how they >> >>>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their feet= , and doing >> >> all >> >>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 hauli= ng the >> >> water, >> >>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the >> >> shearing, >> >>>>> the plowing and the picking. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Because there was no electricity. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Bob >> >>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Hi Frantisek, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of sa= tcom >> >>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to >> >> overcome >> >>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of digi= tal >> >>>>>>>> divide - >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the = goal >> >> to >> >>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially >> >>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at >> >> specifically >> >>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is n= ot >> >>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to ma= ke a >> >>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company bec= ause >> >>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to ser= vice >> >>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is >> >> literally >> >>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, = it >> >> will >> >>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a >> >>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme >> >> locations, >> >>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt. >> >> Whitney). >> >>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is infrastructu= re >> >> that >> >>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However g= iven >> >>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim >> >> period. >> >>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that fro= m a >> >>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually >> >> discussion >> >>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by starl= ink >> >> was >> >>>>>>> mostly redacted. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between >> >>>>>> houses is 'too far'? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities w= ith >> >>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there = are >> >>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable en= ough. >> >>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the= cost >> >>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the majorit= y of >> >>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), = but >> >>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once yo= u get >> >>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or >> >>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an >> >>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI >> >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is les= s >> >>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> David Lang >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> Nnagain mailing list >> >>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >>>>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> Nnagain mailing list >> >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos