From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A39E3B2A4 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2024 18:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-70f44b88bf0so2155204a34.1 for ; Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:18:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1725229082; x=1725833882; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rlxMJf0pKeVzTKnh9OVrI7oq6hpsrduICIXxMkPBUkw=; b=UJQduFm9p7LwDZOgmKGCVqTpd+34HCfmfYricdYOXmuswbknuc6k/cY1c33bZzTAhq ZL54NdsE+T+saULbdnCOtepJVBPHAr5nxCmcF+5I/CGOLJ+fyIR+DDkWQ30O7bauUg0y nXoBtWZoaWypEkhXpYxi3iYRwJLN1qwYZ+N1m48k0P4YfnwEJTTiBe8vmQcUUvhUKgzj 3vDFbGd4YpjmzMyYRdIqtU7BRVmoFRRZ51f/HyglO+MZnke9fWNQmYnUdZu1i2aaAisY ra2tR2TxMH9vgyAPbqz9uKol3+MaCmuLoRHzSGXRajNq0DUJaWB7izg/cYGYBwa04zMk 079Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1725229082; x=1725833882; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=rlxMJf0pKeVzTKnh9OVrI7oq6hpsrduICIXxMkPBUkw=; b=WyYgbmzOXhBZh6leXQtEdu7EIPfY5bP1+zDhnYqd69neoL8JAs0kWLHtDnoYrJWTOK /Td/2k4RhPfgG6C3A0FRn4c9H3cgqrS1cQCyqAe9/UVPKKtieaEJvrTEg1sMIR++3rok LyCfyRTY4wXqQ1IIxSZlq4ehmB9yyt+bkCXQwHM3pKmLGo2Ph6IripdhUp8g78f9wtDd R0jqIvMkijp7ZDUj6VR/ZKTmfFqA6fTyXqRJaOZRTiF0kWvWqn/VnumputEvUne0KUYf VQmwZU3YuVdH05mLaD7H0oIVkpe578x5c9ZHPik7rf2jMkEcACJn4HipHyrQUyVhg9H2 R89g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywsw3hp3Dr3Secay0EAOw3ErrI/5wffh0su/cXtKdYArEVEeglf naZn1CDTrP8IYv7qUWc8Rm0f32TGp2bnlwQu9qowLO0ZnX85yGUPEgRcpRLMzp0ez8tzmsmzNki /MEb+TdUpxXfN1d8cWyhUrEjWJi4n9w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFMRdqCfKAPwLFqJGTSaK4AhkWbKq+2X4zpIAmfhGNYL9MVReuRvqksrA/aMG0mCoHU451zAlon5Zx4cFxcpyU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:e254:b0:260:246e:99aa with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-277aefffcf3mr3382206fac.11.1725229082329; Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:18:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <57a985b7-84f5-4723-9a6c-68343d2b4c30@auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: <57a985b7-84f5-4723-9a6c-68343d2b4c30@auckland.ac.nz> From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2024 15:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ulrich Speidel Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009bcccc062116329c" Subject: Re: [Starlink] An update on Tonga X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2024 22:18:03 -0000 --0000000000009bcccc062116329c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the update! It sounds like the rightest option is to deploy more than one cable on more than one path, and my question is who pays for that? Starlink cannot possibly provide enough bandwidth long term. Also have you been measuring the bloat and the ISLs any in tonga? On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 12:35=E2=80=AFAM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Howdy all, > > There were quite a few folk on this list a couple of years back who were > interested in what was happening to Internet in Tonga after the big > volcanic eruption there. I'm not sure where I left off. > > To re-cap, Tonga lost about 90 km of its international connection to > Fiji at the time (a few dozen km of that could be recovered), and an > amount of cable of similar magnitude on the Tonga Domestic Cable > Extension (TDCE) that ran a fibre pair each to both Vava'u and Ha'apai > from the main island Tongatapu. The TDCE is one of the longer > unrepeatered stretches of submarine cable in the world and runs in a > submarine trench just downhill from the Hunga Tonga Hunga Ha'apai > volcano and its siblings in the chain. Simulations at the timed showed > that this trench likely received a large amount of the material that was > ejected from the volcano, likely several cubic kilometres, and acted as > a kind of gutter that guided the material away from the volcano in > turbidity flows stretching over hundreds of km. At the time, the cable > ship sent to repair was unable to repair the TDCE for lack of spare > cable - nothing was recoverable from the seafloor, and there was not > enough spare cable in the South Pacific to bridge the gap. > > Spare cable was ordered from France and was installed middle of 2023, > restoring the TDCE to service. > > Then, on 29 June 2024, an earthquake near the volcanoes caused yet more > debris to descend on the cable, obliterating 13.7 km of it and cutting > service to both Vava'u and Ha'apai again. Cable ship MV Lodbrog was > brought in from Singapore with 60 km of spares but got delayed in Fiji > due to mechanical issues. The cable was repaired on 16 August 2024, in > the same location. The operators were well aware of the risk, however > re-routing the cable would have required it to be lengthened, with the > need to insert repeaters, upgrade terminal equipment, and conduct a new > marine survey, which would have meant further delays. > > On 26 August 2024, 11:29=E2=80=AFam, a M6.9 quake struck in the area at a= depth > of about 106 km. Our Science building in Auckland has a "citizen > science" seismograph with a big display in its foyer, and my student and > I noticed the very prominent event as we returned from lunch. Little did > we know that this wasn't as close to home as we'd thought, but would > touch us in other ways that week. You've guessed it: The cable has been > cut again, the cable ship's been recalled, and nobody quite knows what > they'll find this time. > > > https://matangitonga.to/2024/08/27/domestic-submarine-cable-out-again-aft= er-haapai-earthquake-yesterday > > The latest plan I know of was to repair in the same location again, > using armored spares - but they know that this may not prevent further > damage. Geological advice is that any decent quake in the area will > cause further submarine landslides in the coming years until the area > has settled. > > Meanwhile, Starlink has been licensed to operate commercially in Tonga. > For many Pacific Island countries, this is a double-edged sword: On the > one hand, this provides short-term relief, on the other hand, it > deprives local ISPs of customers and therefore impacts on aspirations to > achieve cable connectivity which could provide more bandwidth in the > medium term. > > Some island nations have not yet licensed Starlink, but allow Starlink > units on regional roaming plans to operate there. In some cases, there > are now hundreds of such units operating in individual cells. This > appears to be causing Starlink some headaches in terms of capacity - > we've seen them being creative when it comes to user density management > before. What happens if Starlink are going to be licensed there but > can't offer fixed service on the ground because of the large number of > roaming subscribers already there? I understand that some of these > "roaming" users have been contacted by Starlink with a request to either > take these units back to their home location country where they are > registered (which isn't likely to happen given the cost involved) or > register them in the country they're currently in (not possible in some > cases for lack of local fixed service offered). > > Ulrich > > > -- > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > School of Computer Science > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > > The University of Auckland > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > **************************************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11 https://www.eventbrite.com/e/healing-arts-event-tickets-928910826287 Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --0000000000009bcccc062116329c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for the update!

It sounds lik= e the rightest option is to deploy more than one cable on more than one pat= h, and my question is
who pays for that? Starlink cannot possibly= provide enough bandwidth long term.=C2=A0

Also ha= ve you been measuring the bloat and the ISLs any in tonga?


On Sat, Aug 31, 2024 at 12:35=E2=80=AFAM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink &l= t;starlink@lists.bufferbl= oat.net> wrote:
Howdy all,

There were quite a few folk on this list a couple of years back who were interested in what was happening to Internet in Tonga after the big
volcanic eruption there. I'm not sure where I left off.

To re-cap, Tonga lost about 90 km of its international connection to
Fiji at the time (a few dozen km of that could be recovered), and an
amount of cable of similar magnitude on the Tonga Domestic Cable
Extension (TDCE) that ran a fibre pair each to both Vava'u and Ha'a= pai
from the main island Tongatapu. The TDCE is one of the longer
unrepeatered stretches of submarine cable in the world and runs in a
submarine trench just downhill from the Hunga Tonga Hunga Ha'apai
volcano and its siblings in the chain. Simulations at the timed showed
that this trench likely received a large amount of the material that was ejected from the volcano, likely several cubic kilometres, and acted as a kind of gutter that guided the material away from the volcano in
turbidity flows stretching over hundreds of km. At the time, the cable
ship sent to repair was unable to repair the TDCE for lack of spare
cable - nothing was recoverable from the seafloor, and there was not
enough spare cable in the South Pacific to bridge the gap.

Spare cable was ordered from France and was installed middle of 2023,
restoring the TDCE to service.

Then, on 29 June 2024, an earthquake near the volcanoes caused yet more debris to descend on the cable, obliterating 13.7 km of it and cutting
service to both Vava'u and Ha'apai again. Cable ship MV Lodbrog was=
brought in from Singapore with 60 km of spares but got delayed in Fiji
due to mechanical issues. The cable was repaired on 16 August 2024, in
the same location. The operators were well aware of the risk, however
re-routing the cable would have required it to be lengthened, with the
need to insert repeaters, upgrade terminal equipment, and conduct a new marine survey, which would have meant further delays.

On=C2=A026 August 2024, 11:29=E2=80=AFam, a M6.9 quake struck in the area a= t a depth
of about 106 km. Our Science building in Auckland has a "citizen
science" seismograph with a big display in its foyer, and my student a= nd
I noticed the very prominent event as we returned from lunch. Little did we know that this wasn't as close to home as we'd thought, but woul= d
touch us in other ways that week. You've guessed it: The cable has been=
cut again, the cable ship's been recalled, and nobody quite knows what =
they'll find this time.

https://matangitonga.to/2024/08/27/domestic-submarine-cable-out-again-af= ter-haapai-earthquake-yesterday

The latest plan I know of was to repair in the same location again,
using armored spares - but they know that this may not prevent further
damage. Geological advice is that any decent quake in the area will
cause further submarine landslides in the coming years until the area
has settled.

Meanwhile, Starlink has been licensed to operate commercially in Tonga. For many Pacific Island countries, this is a double-edged sword: On the one hand, this provides short-term relief, on the other hand, it
deprives local ISPs of customers and therefore impacts on aspirations to achieve cable connectivity which could provide more bandwidth in the
medium term.

Some island nations have not yet licensed Starlink, but allow Starlink
units on regional roaming plans to operate there. In some cases, there
are now hundreds of such units operating in individual cells. This
appears to be causing Starlink some headaches in terms of capacity -
we've seen them being creative when it comes to user density management=
before. What happens if Starlink are going to be licensed there but
can't offer fixed service on the ground because of the large number of =
roaming subscribers already there? I understand that some of these
"roaming" users have been contacted by Starlink with a request to= either
take these units back to their home location country where they are
registered (which isn't likely to happen given the cost involved) or register them in the country they're currently in (not possible in some=
cases for lack of local fixed service offered).

Ulrich


--
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auc= kland.ac.nz
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Artists/Musician Campout Aug 9-11
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
--0000000000009bcccc062116329c--