On Sat, Jan 14, 2023 at 6:14 AM Nathan Owens wrote: > I realized I goofed up my visualizations, here's all of them again: > I see a ton of loss on all of these! > Lovely pics, thank you, and the sawtooths are obvious, for a change, so in my mind they've cut the buffering back quite a bit since we last checked. The amount of TCP related loss remains low, at least according to the packet captures (not enough loss for tcp! a BDP should settle in at 40ms with a fifo, not 160+!). Kind of related to my "glitches per minute" metric described here: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/speedtests/ What I'm interested in is the distribution pattern of the irtt udp loss. A way to plot that might be along the -1 vertical axis, but incremented down one further for every consecutive loss, and dots, colored, blue->green->yellow->orange->red - voip can survive 3/5 losses in a row fairly handily. Two ways + axis as it is now ----------------------------------------got a packet --------------------------------------------- B loss 1 loss 1 G 2 loss in a row loss 2 Y 3rd loss los 3 O 4 R 5 R .... R R R and/or the same as above but plotting the rx vs tx loss > > > While Luis was downloading/uploading... oof. > [image: Screenshot 2023-01-14 at 6.13.50 AM.png] > > [image: Screenshot 2023-01-14 at 6.12.53 AM.png] > > > > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 3:44 PM Dave Taht wrote: > >> I am forced to conclude that waveform's upload test is broken in some >> cases and has been for some time. All the joy many have been feeling about >> their uplink speeds has to be cast away. Felt good, though, didn't it? >> >> There is a *slight* possibility that there is some fq in the starlink >> network on tcp port 433. The first showing normal rtt growth and loss for >> cubic, the second, a low rate flow that is holding the line... but I didn't >> check to see if these were sequential or parallel. >> >> The last is a cwnd plot, clearly showing the cubic sawtooth on the >> upload. >> >> It's weirdly nice to be able to follow a port 433 stream, see the tls >> handshake put the website en'clair, and the rest go dark, and still trace >> the behaviors. >> >> we're so going to lose this analytical ability with quic. I'm enjoying it >> while we still can. >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 2:10 PM Jonathan Bennett via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> The irtt run finished a few seconds before the flent run, but here are >>> the results: >>> >>> >>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FKve13ssUMW1LLWOXLM2931Yx6uMHw8K/view?usp=share_link >>> >>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZXd64A0pfUedLr3FyhDNTHA7vxv8S2Gk/view?usp=share_link >>> >>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rx64UPQHHz3IMNiJtb1oFqtqw2DvhvEE/view?usp=share_link >>> >>> >>> [image: image.png] >>> [image: image.png] >>> >>> >>> Jonathan Bennett >>> Hackaday.com >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 3:30 PM Nathan Owens via Starlink < >>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Here's Luis's run -- the top line below the edge of the graph is 200ms >>>> [image: Screenshot 2023-01-13 at 1.30.03 PM.png] >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 1:25 PM Luis A. Cornejo < >>>> luis.a.cornejo@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dave, >>>>> >>>>> Here is a run the way I think you wanted it. >>>>> >>>>> irtt running for 5 min to your dallas server, followed by a waveform >>>>> test, then a few seconds of inactivity, cloudflare test, a few more secs of >>>>> nothing, flent test to dallas. Packet capture is currently uploading (will >>>>> be done in 20 min or so), irtt JSON also in there (.zip file): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FLWqrzNcM8aK-ZXQywNkZGFR81Fnzn-F?usp=share_link >>>>> >>>>> -Luis >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 2:50 PM Dave Taht via Starlink < >>>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:30 PM Nathan Owens >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's the data visualization for Johnathan's Data >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [image: Screenshot 2023-01-13 at 12.29.15 PM.png] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can see the path change at :12, :27, :42, :57 after the minute. >>>>>>> Some paths are clearly busier than others with increased loss, latency, and >>>>>>> jitter. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I am so glad to see loss and bounded delay here. Also a bit of rigor >>>>>> regarding what traffic was active locally vs on the path would be nice, >>>>>> although it seems to line up with the known 15s starlink switchover thing >>>>>> (need a name for this), in this case, doing a few speedtests >>>>>> while that irtt is running would show the impact(s) of whatever else >>>>>> they are up to. >>>>>> >>>>>> It would also be my hope that the loss distribution in the middle >>>>>> portion of this data is good, not bursty, but we don't have a tool to take >>>>>> apart that. (I am so hopeless at json) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 10:09 AM Nathan Owens >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I’ll run my visualization code on this result this afternoon and >>>>>>>> report back! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:41 AM Jonathan Bennett via Starlink < >>>>>>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The irtt command, run with normal, light usage: >>>>>>>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SiVCiUYnx7nDTxIVOY5w-z20S2O059rA/view?usp=share_link >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jonathan Bennett >>>>>>>>> Hackaday.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 11:26 AM Dave Taht >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> packet caps would be nice... all this is very exciting news. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'd so love for one or more of y'all reporting such great uplink >>>>>>>>>> results nowadays to duplicate and re-plot the original irtt tests >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> did: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> irtt client -i3ms -d300s myclosestservertoyou.starlink.taht.net >>>>>>>>>> -o whatever.json >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They MUST have changed their scheduling to get such amazing uplink >>>>>>>>>> results, in addition to better queue management. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (for the record, my servers are de, london, fremont, sydney, >>>>>>>>>> dallas, >>>>>>>>>> newark, atlanta, singapore, mumbai) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There's an R and gnuplot script for plotting that output around >>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>> somewhere (I have largely personally put down the starlink >>>>>>>>>> project, >>>>>>>>>> loaning out mine) - that went by on this list... I should have >>>>>>>>>> written >>>>>>>>>> a blog entry so I can find that stuff again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 9:02 AM Jonathan Bennett via Starlink >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 6:28 AM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink < >>>>>>>>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> On 13/01/2023 6:13 pm, Ulrich Speidel wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> >> > From Auckland, New Zealand, using a roaming subscription, it >>>>>>>>>> puts me >>>>>>>>>> >> > in touch with a server 2000 km away. OK then: >>>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> >> > IP address: nix six. >>>>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>>>> >> > My thoughts shall follow later. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> OK, so here we go. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I'm always a bit skeptical when it comes to speed tests - >>>>>>>>>> they're really >>>>>>>>>> >> laden with so many caveats that it's not funny. I took our new >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> >> Starlink kit home in December to give it a try and the other >>>>>>>>>> day finally >>>>>>>>>> >> got around to set it up. It's on a roaming subscription >>>>>>>>>> because our >>>>>>>>>> >> badly built-up campus really isn't ideal in terms of a clear >>>>>>>>>> view of the >>>>>>>>>> >> sky. Oh - and did I mention that I used the Starlink Ethernet >>>>>>>>>> adapter, >>>>>>>>>> >> not the WiFi? >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Caveat 1: Location, location. I live in a place where the best >>>>>>>>>> Starlink >>>>>>>>>> >> promises is about 1/3 in terms of data rate you can actually >>>>>>>>>> get from >>>>>>>>>> >> fibre to the home at under half of Starlink's price. Read: >>>>>>>>>> There are few >>>>>>>>>> >> Starlink users around. I might be the only one in my suburb. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Caveat 2: Auckland has three Starlink gateways close by: >>>>>>>>>> Clevedon (which >>>>>>>>>> >> is at a stretch daytrip cycling distance from here), Te Hana >>>>>>>>>> and Puwera, >>>>>>>>>> >> the most distant of the three and about 130 km away from me as >>>>>>>>>> the crow >>>>>>>>>> >> flies. Read: My dishy can use any satellite that any of these >>>>>>>>>> three can >>>>>>>>>> >> see, and then depending on where I put it and how much of the >>>>>>>>>> southern >>>>>>>>>> >> sky it can see, maybe also the one in Hinds, 840 km away, >>>>>>>>>> although that >>>>>>>>>> >> is obviously stretching it a bit. Either way, that's plenty of >>>>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>>>> >> for my bits to travel without needing a lot of handovers. Why? >>>>>>>>>> Easy: If >>>>>>>>>> >> your nearest teleport is close by, then the set of satellites >>>>>>>>>> that the >>>>>>>>>> >> teleport can see and the set that you can see is almost the >>>>>>>>>> same, so you >>>>>>>>>> >> can essentially stick with the same satellite while it's in >>>>>>>>>> view for you >>>>>>>>>> >> because it'll also be in view for the teleport. Pretty much >>>>>>>>>> any bird >>>>>>>>>> >> above you will do. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> And because I don't get a lot of competition from other users >>>>>>>>>> in my area >>>>>>>>>> >> vying for one of the few available satellites that can see >>>>>>>>>> both us and >>>>>>>>>> >> the teleport, this is about as good as it gets at 37S >>>>>>>>>> latitude. If I'd >>>>>>>>>> >> want it any better, I'd have to move a lot further south. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> It'd be interesting to hear from Jonathan what the >>>>>>>>>> availability of home >>>>>>>>>> >> broadband is like in the Dallas area. I note that it's at a >>>>>>>>>> lower >>>>>>>>>> >> latitude (33N) than Auckland, but the difference isn't huge. I >>>>>>>>>> notice >>>>>>>>>> >> two teleports each about 160 km away, which is also not too >>>>>>>>>> bad. I also >>>>>>>>>> >> note Starlink availability in the area is restricted at the >>>>>>>>>> moment - >>>>>>>>>> >> oversubscribed? But if Jonathan gets good data rates, then >>>>>>>>>> that means >>>>>>>>>> >> that competition for bird capacity can't be too bad - for >>>>>>>>>> whatever reason. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > I'm in Southwest Oklahoma, but Dallas is the nearby Starlink >>>>>>>>>> gateway. In cities, like Dallas, and Lawton where I live, there are good >>>>>>>>>> broadband options. But there are also many people that live outside cities, >>>>>>>>>> and the options are much worse. The low density userbase in rural Oklahoma >>>>>>>>>> and Texas is probably ideal conditions for Starlink. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Caveat 3: Backhaul. There isn't just one queue between me and >>>>>>>>>> whatever I >>>>>>>>>> >> talk to in terms of my communications. Traceroute shows about >>>>>>>>>> 10 hops >>>>>>>>>> >> between me and the University of Auckland via Starlink. That's >>>>>>>>>> 10 >>>>>>>>>> >> queues, not one. Many of them will have cross traffic. So it's >>>>>>>>>> a bit >>>>>>>>>> >> hard to tell where our packets really get to wait or where >>>>>>>>>> they get >>>>>>>>>> >> dropped. The insidious bit here is that a lot of them will be >>>>>>>>>> between 1 >>>>>>>>>> >> Gb/s and 10 Gb/s links, and with a bit of cross traffic, they >>>>>>>>>> can all >>>>>>>>>> >> turn into bottlenecks. This isn't like a narrowband GEO link >>>>>>>>>> of a few >>>>>>>>>> >> Mb/s where it's obvious where the dominant long latency >>>>>>>>>> bottleneck in >>>>>>>>>> >> your TCP connection's path is. Read: It's pretty hard to tell >>>>>>>>>> whether a >>>>>>>>>> >> drop in "speed" is due to a performance issue in the Starlink >>>>>>>>>> system or >>>>>>>>>> >> somewhere between Starlink's systems and the target system. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I see RTTs here between 20 ms and 250 ms, where the physical >>>>>>>>>> latency >>>>>>>>>> >> should be under 15 ms. So there's clearly a bit of buffer here >>>>>>>>>> along the >>>>>>>>>> >> chain that occasionally fills up. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Caveat 4: Handovers. Handover between birds and teleports is >>>>>>>>>> inevitably >>>>>>>>>> >> associated with a change in RTT and in most cases also >>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>> >> bandwidth. Plus your packets now arrive at a new queue on a new >>>>>>>>>> >> satellite while your TCP is still trying to respond to >>>>>>>>>> whatever it >>>>>>>>>> >> thought the queue on the previous bird was doing. Read: >>>>>>>>>> Whatever your >>>>>>>>>> >> cwnd is immediately after a handover, it's probably not what >>>>>>>>>> it should be. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I ran a somewhat hamstrung (sky view restricted) set of four >>>>>>>>>> Ookla >>>>>>>>>> >> speedtest.net tests each to five local servers. Average >>>>>>>>>> upload rate was >>>>>>>>>> >> 13 Mb/s, average down 75.5 Mb/s. Upload to the server of the >>>>>>>>>> ISP that >>>>>>>>>> >> Starlink seems to be buying its local connectivity from (Vocus >>>>>>>>>> Group) >>>>>>>>>> >> varied between 3.04 and 14.38 Mb/s, download between 23.33 and >>>>>>>>>> 52.22 >>>>>>>>>> >> Mb/s, with RTTs between 37 and 56 ms not correlating well to >>>>>>>>>> rates >>>>>>>>>> >> observed. In fact, they were the ISP with consistently the >>>>>>>>>> worst rates. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Another ISP (MyRepublic) scored between 11.81 and 21.81 Mb/s >>>>>>>>>> up and >>>>>>>>>> >> between 106.5 and 183.8 Mb/s down, again with RTTs badly >>>>>>>>>> correlating >>>>>>>>>> >> with rates. Average RTT was the same as for Vocus. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Note the variation though: More or less a factor of two >>>>>>>>>> between highest >>>>>>>>>> >> and lowest rates for each ISP. Did MyRepublic just get lucky >>>>>>>>>> in my >>>>>>>>>> >> tests? Or is there something systematic behind this? Way too >>>>>>>>>> few tests >>>>>>>>>> >> to tell. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> What these tests do is establish a ballpark. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> I'm currently repeating tests with dish placed on a trestle >>>>>>>>>> closer to >>>>>>>>>> >> the heavens. This seems to have translated into fewer outages >>>>>>>>>> / ping >>>>>>>>>> >> losses (around 1/4 of what I had yesterday with dishy on the >>>>>>>>>> ground on >>>>>>>>>> >> my deck). Still good enough for a lengthy video Skype call >>>>>>>>>> with my folks >>>>>>>>>> >> in Germany, although they did comment about reduced video >>>>>>>>>> quality. But >>>>>>>>>> >> maybe that was the lighting or the different background as I >>>>>>>>>> wasn't in >>>>>>>>>> >> my usual spot with my laptop when I called them. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Clear view of the sky is king for Starlink reliability. I've >>>>>>>>>> got my dishy mounted on the back fence, looking up over an empty field, so >>>>>>>>>> it's pretty much best-case scenario here. >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> -- >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> **************************************************************** >>>>>>>>>> >> Dr. Ulrich Speidel >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> School of Computer Science >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> The University of Auckland >>>>>>>>>> >> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz >>>>>>>>>> >> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> **************************************************************** >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> >> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> > Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>>>> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>>>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >> >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > -- This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC