From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112e.google.com (mail-yw1-x112e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798673B2A4 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yw1-x112e.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-59c0d329a8bso13958287b3.1 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 09:04:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695312295; x=1695917095; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8xR4ehjdPfNrZJE01taDOlPKqQ8hqQjp0BXrsEeaVHs=; b=iLIT/3qFxHPliEwqCeuAlH+4MX/a/s7SupMvFcLSp6nR2mAwW3fgH/9HOWFLfii1/7 X+lqb8vagkFCBg9YLLo7tSKpRK+MaS2SFIU+CMpmLtybygZNh7o0If0QqfSLkNYSBILA xW47Ll4ZgHN3igPMlpxqLgXuOJ0DOe1xpp+nhsq4Yw3skCKUx3LdwucW0S21U3shzW9P xvW5cEENn01bH/zUDKrSMqi7m2IeRhrQh9zGB6MJGOTzmO/ZL5Amd1wS6bGnXHs2ErqG G3Sun/Ws6NGkh/vyfhLmEQmKQtmYlE2PIjg56YDFtV21lQFr7HTdpYt53qYAnfR4Cre4 xVWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695312295; x=1695917095; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=8xR4ehjdPfNrZJE01taDOlPKqQ8hqQjp0BXrsEeaVHs=; b=VLT0EosTcqylf2Sc5vZOgHaTvoJxgrWYQg0UXdGyV+w/+HOCroNgcsO0MQJDOL8EBv FN3o4R+KRd3D7b+UVfUrDJPjMljuOSWk94PDAf+gAj+7po7YPanSgaJ1ZztmcXY2KsJL zuzMc+XzSilCmUgk4Cnp0sZip+Hgu9bRGysCMMiGC7tbP8usEuXNI4iQVx9ti9QkLd0e 4kw8SxtGsLS3Qh/739R1BA8NBLaiil/pcs3G9ydMkZhBE5S/7xaCyNPjADMbQGugasSN oK6h6M4I+bIuo0VsbJFWltVL6zmWDVVTbue7K8O0C4QdN2kWcw6hzZkw+tlQtiSMMi3Y IakA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywsb5nltd4Wpti5Ts6VMLJM7Nn1uoS8CtIdM4Gyz+/fEs16TJHC nWr1jbTYHZhxvp1MBcUMp0oGGnOENV6CEKisc8g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEyLDhXustbY5WNIJGo4josaOYMy0kLaDBLEKwlRoG4wFApqCv9sZJK3oHOyRKpI3nB9r16vz1mmcpOzwDa6ls= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:f382:0:b0:592:608b:b9f7 with SMTP id c124-20020a0df382000000b00592608bb9f7mr5198781ywf.35.1695312294586; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 09:04:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <281c105f-76a3-41ec-80aa-7b79bb2e0511@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <281c105f-76a3-41ec-80aa-7b79bb2e0511@gmail.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 09:04:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a33eb0605e0a7c0" Subject: Re: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 16:04:55 -0000 --0000000000001a33eb0605e0a7c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is an uplifting story about keeping the network going in the case of a biological war and disaster. It kind of predates LEO sats, but, in general the tales of individual sysadmin heroism, inspires me. A similar tale might be told of the fellas that kept Iridium going in the dark days of bankruptcy, and buyout. https://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-_When_Sysadm= ins_Ruled_the_Earth.html On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 6:59=E2=80=AFAM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > Le 20/09/2023 =C3=A0 11:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink a =C3=A9cri= t : > > Wondering what else, besides anycast DNS, could be worth hosting up > there. > > > > There is this study going on too: > https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/101082517 > > > > > >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 14:09:13 -0700 > >> From: Dave Taht > >> To: Dave Taht via Starlink > >> Subject: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world > >> Message-ID: > >> < > CAA93jw5L_t4ZdcCv8-ESegBm-o8_2UTWwD_Hw7qpxmUs7D7DrQ@mail.gmail.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > >> > >> John Carmack just kicked off a thoughtful thread over here: > >> > >> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328 > >> > >> (Among other things, I would rather like to see DNS services hosted > native > >> up there) > >> > >> Starting point: > >> The idea that the internet was created to survive nuclear war is > >> apocryphal; packet routing does provide some resilience, but you will > lose > >> internet in an apocalypse. Space based systems are interesting to > consider > >> =E2=80=94 they tend to be very reliant on ground systems, but it would= be > >> technically elegant if packets from one ground station to another were > >> delivered directly, with no other ground interaction. LEO constellatio= ns > >> probably need near constant ground help to update orbital ephemeris, a= nd > >> the orbits would decay in a few years anyway, but GEO sats could > continue > >> operating for decades if their control software didn=E2=80=99t preclud= e it. > There > >> should be off grid (or even in-space) servers connected to the satelli= te > >> networks at static IP addresses (so DNS isn=E2=80=99t required). The W= ebsite For > >> The End Of The World. What would a sparsely distributed group of > apocalypse > >> survivors want to see there? A Wikipedia mirror and some type of forum > for > >> communication, certainly. It seems like a good story element, but a > little > >> real world LARPing along those lines would be fun. The tragedy would b= e > >> when all the terminals maintaining a fragile network of communication > among > >> humanity shut down due to the account billing servers being unavailabl= e. > > > Recent experience about war teaches many things. (if war is what you > mean by end of world, because there could be other reasons for end of > world, like viruses, volcanos, metoerites and others). > > In an advanced war, the destruction of sats could appear relatively > early. At that point, it would make not much sense to put many eggs up > there on sats. > > In a controlled war, the sats might indeed be spared - maintained there > in agreement, but then we wouldn't talk about 'end of the world'. > However, it is not known whether there could be such thing as a > 'controlled war' when people get very upset at each other. > > For the contents of an 'end of the world' website, provided it could be > reached somehow, maybe among some underground shelters, I'd suggest the > following: > > - prayers (I am not a believer right now, but at the end of the world > one never knows). > > - description of a means to measure time when light (Sun, starlight) is > absent, so no shadows for sticks. > > - description of methods to communicate on a longer distance when > electricity and batteries are unavailable. > > - other similar survival's expert advice. > > Alex > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Oct 30: > https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --0000000000001a33eb0605e0a7c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is an uplifting story about keeping the network going= in the case of a biological war and disaster. It kind of predates LEO sats= , but, in general the tales of individual sysadmin heroism,
inspires me= . A similar tale might be told of the fellas=C2=A0that kept Iridium going i= n the dark days of bankruptcy, and buyout.=C2=A0


On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 6:59=E2=80=AFAM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink = <starlink@lists.buffer= bloat.net> wrote:

Le 20/09/2023 =C3=A0 11:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink a =C3=A9crit= =C2=A0:
> Wondering what else, besides anycast DNS, could be worth hosting up th= ere.
>
> There is this study going on too: https://cordis.e= uropa.eu/project/id/101082517
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 14:09:13 -0700
>> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Subject: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world
>> Message-ID:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CAA93jw5L_t4Z= dcCv8-ESegBm-o8_2UTWwD_Hw7qpxmUs7D7DrQ@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>>
>> John Carmack just kicked off a thoughtful thread over here:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carma= ck/status/1704160299845071328
>>
>> (Among other things, I would rather like to see DNS services hoste= d native
>> up there)
>>
>> Starting point:
>> The idea that the internet was created to survive nuclear war is >> apocryphal; packet routing does provide some resilience, but you w= ill lose
>> internet in an apocalypse. Space based systems are interesting to = consider
>> =E2=80=94 they tend to be very reliant on ground systems, but it w= ould be
>> technically elegant if packets from one ground station to another = were
>> delivered directly, with no other ground interaction. LEO constell= ations
>> probably need near constant ground help to update orbital ephemeri= s, and
>> the orbits would decay in a few years anyway, but GEO sats could c= ontinue
>> operating for decades if their control software didn=E2=80=99t pre= clude it. There
>> should be off grid (or even in-space) servers connected to the sat= ellite
>> networks at static IP addresses (so DNS isn=E2=80=99t required). T= he Website For
>> The End Of The World. What would a sparsely distributed group of a= pocalypse
>> survivors want to see there? A Wikipedia mirror and some type of f= orum for
>> communication, certainly. It seems like a good story element, but = a little
>> real world LARPing along those lines would be fun. The tragedy wou= ld be
>> when all the terminals maintaining a fragile network of communicat= ion among
>> humanity shut down due to the account billing servers being unavai= lable.


Recent experience about war teaches many things. (if war is what you
mean by end of world, because there could be other reasons for end of
world, like viruses, volcanos, metoerites and others).

In an advanced war, the destruction of sats could appear relatively
early.=C2=A0 At that point, it would make not much sense to put many eggs u= p
there on sats.

In a controlled war, the sats might indeed be spared - maintained there in agreement, but then we wouldn't talk about 'end of the world'= ;.=C2=A0
However, it is not known whether there could be such thing as a
'controlled war' when people get very upset at each other.

For the contents of an 'end of the world' website, provided it coul= d be
reached somehow, maybe among some underground shelters, I'd suggest the=
following:

- prayers (I am not a believer right now, but at the end of the world
one never knows).

- description of a means to measure time when light (Sun, starlight) is absent, so no shadows for sticks.

- description of methods to communicate on a longer distance when
electricity and batteries are unavailable.

- other similar survival's expert advice.

Alex

>>
>> <https://twitter.com/ID_AA_C= armack/status/1704160299845071328>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oct 30: https://netdevc= onf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> St= arlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /a>
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Dave T=C3=A4ht = CSO, LibreQos
--0000000000001a33eb0605e0a7c0--