From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52a.google.com (mail-ed1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EA4E3B2A4 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2022 11:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id cn6so15830378edb.5 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 08:26:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MpymJzyJtnW/bCO5Ai0BajBmsOSA/vxOWLETRf1rmz4=; b=GG5K17f7VW8rjAasWPc9nxrS1dbezft7/aPVJ/VrPH/kbrZqiap/qnWyA3SUaaJ9Nh B6fo1k3BsqflL2mwHV/Dbq1Su8xNd5SCQv6l/urDGIBDM54uNB1uhnKob8Dir0hvg1zU 8FxMwUwAPJ/3qqgArus50bHK/npMmapIAjj9r6V5dSCXIDoNs+5/4cpd4M2Z/BsczyMs Il8Q/hzVMZ7ptKXOcyFxd5o3kUHFkKLY6Ps042TMXBF9KqbA52Tz/oMDRNcln0LTF+Jy zKgmqaSVhrX1GwfuldEzQ+StiuvC3aUw5fyODqXTUIMf4Ht65ZSIIMkl33tzOYC1tVOB yWlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MpymJzyJtnW/bCO5Ai0BajBmsOSA/vxOWLETRf1rmz4=; b=dGL1VY4QaDUP1AkSiBcGsbRDyzaazh+kzi2RHihJ4+DlD4RrdaMg04mOHUp/R+Kjv+ hHuY+7wKmRkiTOCHUEEx0y744UwgYe4TCZZgW60z4bOZjsOGBXs3DMcbkMRMr70vIkCP joNyBIAGHHsCxgSVbpchgjHQG1NqA+Ys+gYUi2BlVQGJogOqsOJu8XBHDBvAElRnYtZ0 8cb1dYys7JsI2lop5DLrSO/OXs4wpDsWGH83AhjP5+l5CG3oEkGKap0LiqMz8xuVc8Q4 bl3xh3nW43qZy6ptQf1rzAIp8IRe+d6Ga62zKnDew5iSQmOr+2sKEu6FddLO4uHGLQh5 5vxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532atE8uekDa6eW9dTXP2cD2ehg7i3nfdb7tJrt9BW/vPs2kPpaO 3M+bQD/1gVhsJc8Tk/nRFnbOgNTwFaIedW+Wn/h+WTQ8zvGsrw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw05nWBZfp8f2oFHvelFerSXJzEhLNwILAh3bXQWNv5QkkyVffvhP+4Mdy+ACcZMduoE2G8xCE/Utl0zjRNgCE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1601:: with SMTP id f1mr5299363edv.165.1644337562040; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 08:26:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <431oq9ns-qnpn-n56r-6np6-374rsq317q@ynat.uz> <8ecdc077-1751-4302-a013-fa35b2291a87@Spark> <380541e2-c5fa-b3ff-b28c-8d3d993be416@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <5d9dab2c-3c20-4d18-aa1d-cc72bf250843@Spark> <736pq4q3-q21n-p6rn-9391-o56qn77npn2@ynat.uz> <9383f6d3-b6e3-de25-fee0-4416bd05c030@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <7ffdb646-0d02-c1fa-6857-576c2681490c@falco.ca> <2e2c67c8-839b-e1af-5937-78dab715d482@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <8b7fd197-777d-e963-628d-4cdff7c04380@sokolov.eu.org> <78be6869-375c-02a8-498b-7446287ab97d@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <0136de5b-a198-4ebf-8a12-baa2424c431d@Spark> <6b0b3d22-f3e6-a3bd-b04c-af15e5498560@sokolov.eu.org> <07e8f287-3da1-4890-817f-4daf945c8d12@Spark> <10acc51c-f00c-02cc-c117-ed6083faf9d0@vdr.net> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 08:25:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: Mike Puchol Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Christian von der Ropp Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink for Tonga? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 16:26:03 -0000 i grew up on an obscure british TV show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbirds_(TV_series) And only today learned there was a remake. What I don't quite understand is why a full-fledged ground station is needed to get dropped. (in a day after they have laser links) A simple dishy can do 300mbit down and over 20Mbit up. using a 32k codec that's quite a few voice calls, or cleared transactions. The difference between zero and some connectivity is quite a lot. On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:28 AM Mike Puchol wrote: > > Hi Christian, > > The concern with O3b will be once they launch the inclined orbit mPOWER s= atellites, which will cause inline events outside the GSO arc. Of the other= constellations, OneWeb is a concern on Ka band already, but they only oper= ate above 50=C2=BA North, where Starlink doesn=E2=80=99t really operate tha= t much yet, Telesat has launched only one test satellite. > > It will come for sure, and there will be a requirement for an RF conjunct= ion event management system. IMHO it=E2=80=99s going to be messy before it = gets better. > > Best, > > Mike > On Feb 8, 2022, 14:50 +0100, Christian von der Ropp , wrote= : > > And to make things even more complicated Starlink also have to avoid emis= sions within a certain angle towards O3b's satellites in MEO (relatively ea= sy as they are close to the geostationary arc) and to all its LEO competito= rs with higher ITU priority which would be OneWeb, Telesat Lightspeed, KLEO= Connect and before all these a potential European LEO constellation should= it use Thales' ITU filings (MCSAT-2 LEO-x) - see https://www.itu.int/en/IT= U-R/space/workshops/danang-2015/Documents/Presentations/Yvon%20Henri%20-%20= NGSO%20Issues.pdf > > The more satellites these LEO competitors deploy, the more in-line events= will occur during which Starlink will have to seize emissions - a so far u= nderestimated issue that could severely impair coverage and service availab= ility. > > Am 08.02.2022 um 11:11 schrieb Ulrich Speidel: > > That's an interesting aspect that I hadn't considered! A quick back-of-th= e-envelope reveals that the GSO arc is at least 15 times beyond a Starlink = LEO satellite, and with Friis propagation, that's about 23 dB in terms of d= ifference in path loss, and thus not as much separation as you'd want. Unde= r ITU regs you're competing with noise, not signal ;-) > > Either way, I know it's a contested topic even at the regulatory level. > > Tonga is at around 20 deg south so could be using anything from north jus= t over zenith to further south, but as I've pointed out, there are other is= sues here also. > > On 8/02/2022 9:58 pm, Mike Puchol wrote: > > The GSO satellite operators, due to the fact that they have been there fo= r eons, plus they cannot move the satellites around, are at a disadvantage = with NGSO operators such as Starlink, when it comes to using the same share= d spectrum. The Ku band downlink spectrum Starlink uses is the same as your= satellite TV, thus, if your Dishy was inline with a Starlink satellite and= the line towards the GSO arc, the satellite would kill all satellite TV in= your area. > > The ITU in its article 22 specifies how NGSO operators must protect GSO o= perators, by not generating interference above certain power levels to or f= rom the GSO arc. For Dishy, this means it cannot transmit anywhere between = the GSO arc elevation and +18=C2=B0 (up), -18=C2=B0 (down). > > In Barcelona, the GSO arc due South sits at around 43=C2=B0 in elevation,= thus, my Dishy cannot transmit between 25=C2=B0 and 61=C2=B0 in elevation = due South. However, the protection band begins around an azimuth of 120=C2= =B0, up to around 240=C2=B0. > > In the Equator, the GSO protection band starts due East, and goes all the= way across the sky due West. It also takes out 37=C2=B0 of visible sky at = zenith. > > Hope this helps! > > Best, > > Mike > On Feb 8, 2022, 09:49 +0100, Daniel AJ Sokolov , w= rote: > > On 2022-02-08 at 01:47, Mike Puchol wrote: > > the biggest impact on Fiji and Tonga is the GSO protection, which > takes out 36=C2=B0 of usable sky, all the way from East to West. > > > Ho Mike, > > would you please be so kind to explain that a bit more? > > Thank you > Daniel > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > -- > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > School of Computer Science > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 > > The University of Auckland > ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > **************************************************************** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > -- > M +49.179.3695000 > T +49.7071.538720 > F +49.7071.538722 > > E cvdr@vdr.net > W www.vdr.net > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC