From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3D0C3B2A4 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 21:11:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id d14so3674706eda.12 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 18:11:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/NLQaeThqAQVC+4VnDOjTHBhjdRUb8kt6K7olOdwBbM=; b=RNwZ7t0xG4FgYqMoHU02/wpwypGqGLfUE44G1cJFaQ02gCTI8xzILVZdnt99mYK6/3 oGVUEotUtUvhPLl0RmsKkysKQwrhFvYD11ZP0ALTLUFMQGhmPT46lrH/c9+celcr79YC nMlhcYBs+m+cpQkATH7LPk0rSXAzqFg4aCQOiBZSYTD8nK4Ihq2Fho6gYPgeNNWaY+xH IozBSQHfElXRNdjqhtGNK6oqHp6r0ZLzv+7Yu9xkJF69G7r1GkQuyfS6D5qJk2sQRRj1 VGMStt4mjJKISLNOy6h23LlqEa1eDBQOyiAdsPDEiDN6kxlO1htBMGKs1yu3ObgMZE48 eQpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/NLQaeThqAQVC+4VnDOjTHBhjdRUb8kt6K7olOdwBbM=; b=fbkYiAlY5CN3l73X7J54kWhLRyqbWdGbV0dzrrXpGmamj9kUiKmfjaSYyh67nVjYON OeQpXtfe0g7BrjO7LKFJqgZDjP/jgbzItIF7lVypeYjuKpTS1qNSmi8T1X0CCrVhb2Z/ 2mmZhUP8IYhDAqgxAqdMBkpDIr3ZRuhTQnSsnkw8jl1PTpuhqz4vDtsE+9Z0/6VEb66M HIKXq+YPnQ/PQq9dQpd+MJxVXNPJJ5uea2CI5YdwsO3sZ2V/dcxWItZztH0kk5BXe8jV HHZ948AGJ0wy14w2u0pFkTAl1hb5IYHWBONLTiddw36HY5rTv6Opoebt9OzUSh0VkDVm P7Fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531mWy2oOiFZ2qYc6Vo7YQzunwQus3q1uWRuFpH998SZByHQziJ5 fB4FW2SVEYFYF/EkXuRzlzSWivBhe5N+vG7P8Qw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDtizIjr8lruBaDSEGZIK2uIU/hRm7VJ0Cb4oStRDNFSQXhn2qtcsV9nI1J1f5ulaKDPm9EKy+56R/IdW+Pa8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:528f:b0:42a:c778:469e with SMTP id en15-20020a056402528f00b0042ac778469emr41642669edb.404.1654737087637; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 18:11:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1654714026.72728578@apps.rackspace.com> <1223D984-F410-4457-A2F5-471C5F638BF9@apple.com> <60o9p77-4q39-nnr8-0n6-72q11s84444n@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <60o9p77-4q39-nnr8-0n6-72q11s84444n@ynat.uz> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 18:11:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Stuart Cheshire , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, "David P. Reed" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] FQ_Codel X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 01:11:29 -0000 On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 5:21 PM David Lang wrote: > > multiple access points, good. Mesh can make the problem worse. > > The combination of hidden transmitters (station in the middle can hear st= ations > on both ends, but they can't hear each other and so step on each other) a= nd just > more airtime needed ro relay the messages as there are more hops can make= the > congestion worse (however, it is possible that higher data rates could ma= ke the > transmissions shorter, but since the inter-aggregate gaps and per-aggrega= te > headers are fixed at a low data rate, I doubt that it works that way in > practice) > > but get a few additional APs hooked together via wires, and you have a cl= ear win > that scales very well. It's what we do at the Scale conf with 100+ APs to > support 3k+ geeks. Is there a physical scale conference this year? (It's in LA and a lot of space/film folk go there) For those that don't know, david lang has been putting together the fq_codeled APs there for what? 8 years now? Conference feedback on the wifi has generally been uniformly positive. What APs do you use now? > David Lang > > On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > > > On 8 Jun 2022, at 12:12, warren ponder wrote: > > > >> So this is really helpful. Is it fair to say then that end users with = SQM and fq_codel on a Starlink connection should essentially not turn on SQ= M.and.just leave it off? > > > > My advice is that people should have SQM (e.g., fq_codel) enabled anywh= ere it is available. For devices that aren=E2=80=99t the bottleneck hop on = a path it won=E2=80=99t make any difference, but it won=E2=80=99t hurt. And= if the network topology is such that it does become the bottleneck hop, ev= en briefly, SQM will avoid having a big queue build up there. > > > > One example is Wi-Fi. If you have 50Mb/s Internet service and 802.11ac = Wi-Fi in the house, your Wi-Fi is unlikely to be the bottleneck. But if you= walk out to the garden and the Wi-Fi rate drops to 40Mb/s, then suddenly b= ufferbloat in the AP can bite you, leading to bi-modal network usability, t= hat abruptly falls off a cliff the moment your Wi-Fi rate drops below your = Internet service rate. I think this is a large part of the reason behind th= e enthusiasm these days for =E2=80=9Cmesh=E2=80=9D Wi-Fi systems -- you nee= d to blanket your home with sufficient density of Wi-Fi access points to en= sure that they never become the bottleneck hop and expose their incompetent= queue management. If you get 11Mb/s in the garden that should be plenty to= stream music, but throw in some egregious bufferbloat and a perfectly good= 11Mb/s rate becomes unusably bad. Ironically, if you pay more for faster I= nternet service then the problem gets worse, not better, because the effect= ive usable range of your bufferbloate > d Wi-Fi access points shrinks as the rate coming into the house goes up. > > > > Stuart Cheshire > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink________________________= _______________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_code= l/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC