From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x2f.google.com (mail-oa1-x2f.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 227D33B29D for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2025 18:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oa1-x2f.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2bcf9d9b60aso311884fac.3 for ; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 15:11:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1741302672; x=1741907472; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=1fxkqAWLsMHCZYQQy7YGiu3MtaxR/KdEh5pGITGZ7Gk=; b=is8dkMS0dTQZNp++8SGlRy10pI1kWNVlxAVVHtwb6ZgTBwsodcx1P1IzONbCyScwUQ SPCcZozZ3rolWLHAtEOTPrWHQfR0SUUBVrgxYZnuaCyoUwUlcDbGNm5ms7ZOIR6j1y4P DjMqE3wIBWXbvkZmxzBtofsyNyRpVxjJAi+1V3kBuHX77cyeIsv0fO59H2e9BX6Lh1UR FS/DxDVjvvDIKgPFlkLnjWZbncbqgf5seB3QrRVetSaHeQvvq19CB9GI7dXJnp1XdKE+ UHhJ7pFSGeD8z3RjEQFGNCou0DiDdKFXQyi9uzvU1+P3i5Y+O6SbW3z9KtNIw2bFBkEc VUvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1741302672; x=1741907472; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=1fxkqAWLsMHCZYQQy7YGiu3MtaxR/KdEh5pGITGZ7Gk=; b=kXNH2g+fFgHr2VCqdCNweo9hELE5h/MRm0PHGEKeWg4lDlQifWCZM5XP3MesoBrDlw IHndyfATpUGH3tFZ1kiT+SBw2uJu8hXAWECX66t/wAv3zAVX1MuDUAWexwvKnVNBFhhm whiXlRma7hJOVn4jn4hbP2WOCcfOSPAxlUCpT32ozcdWvtYQb321OCbKokwlyoeuoLEm Z8YPPdV/sY3s+wqarjvoQP9EfAW9QSL18lWX4wWx97UR+XP81bwffRuOQAnPrytuwr5k g4+jcAQyexMW02So5gTyoICjsbOMsiwhBpWEBsjkRGRG6bRFeeuOQLc0wT04nGhKYrGr eiBA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWHqbqG8ODZZPKQt7mbaeCKM6pLOit+xrzipraQVqs8u93LhsOkuEh37VNDrNsd6BHPwp/6yqMpLw==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyWa5wOpR5FcaDThT16e5jvQmRdIR35RSmXO12FQnJT1Lx9jLLL +5wNZyAjE23oHsxpiV25dNvFbjzQMXUy6vtalw2a/ssArVtHeAea5n4M6Oepy5O/9owkNqkcjOz cLHJrvTmeqnoOYz6NOhLdcTp9trA= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnct+R+bWwaLHbmd2ws67rNVzoi3hV4LfBZ1Nz+cQ+8n5gGN1FUwoq0AAlJFhGuN pGjUQchaHsTijL+XgvU9n1SZze/zmlTJcUuF+NE7T5+6RnMm1LwzcWEIiPy+vuT9ed18xOodJOw c935819eiuTUtgl2OrVBUl7djVAA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFHC3h7VNZdRO3sFNVG5WLJ5xz0YdbHfiWJgLoaHE3voz1PZmccJwl6VNQj3m7uamgL2EZ1CXk0XM9s5C5uxnU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:1ecf:b0:2c2:3e54:553 with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-2c26133ba0dmr732707fac.28.1741302672325; Thu, 06 Mar 2025 15:11:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <47A7A95F-B3C7-43A7-9A18-10CA8C2DEC2E@surrey.ac.uk> <200F1E39-0209-4AED-A431-7B2B408FD4BC@surrey.ac.uk> <22943.1741286902@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <1AB77B58-47CA-4363-9A98-768F36C39DCE@surrey.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <1AB77B58-47CA-4363-9A98-768F36C39DCE@surrey.ac.uk> From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2025 17:10:58 -0600 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JpbClSxlZF6NsLaqDMxDdZIDVbXOS3WaR_l48kIBAklyWdmDmxx1ESF1t8 Message-ID: To: Nishanth Sastry Cc: Michael Richardson , Rick Taylor , Kevin Shortt , "Edward J. Birrane" , Starlink BufferBloat List , "Juan A. Fraire" , Erik Kline , Joerg Ott Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] IETF side meeting on satellite and deep space networks (Tue Mar 18) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2025 23:11:13 -0000 Without attracting the major players (starlink, nasa, oneweb, etc, etc) to an effort here, I don't know what we could do to move forward in these areas. NASA had published a comms architecture for the earth-moon corredor a.few years back that was an awesome mess of competing technologies, hardly an architecture at all. (I can go find it) On Thu, Mar 6, 2025 at 4:37=E2=80=AFPM Nishanth Sastry wrote: > > Hi Michael > > Did you consider rechartering dtnrg ? > > IMHO most of the LEO stuff is quite far from DTNRG and needs its own home= ; although strong overlaps exist between some of the bundle protocol ideas = and DTN. (There was also Kevin Fall=E2=80=99s Interplanetary Internet and I= PNSIG). > > It seems to me that there is research needed in predictable routing flaps= . Most routing protocols today assume that failures are random. > > Totally agree! > > Best Wishes > nishanth > > On 6 Mar 2025, at 18:48, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Nishanth Sastry via Starlink wrote: > > Great question. One clear and easy answer is that this is meant to be > > an IRTF group rather than an IETF group, so with more of a focus on > > identifying long-term research issues (that are of interest to the IETF > > community) rather than on forming standards. We think there is a need > > for an IRTF-lens to draw clear boundaries, identify overlaps, and > > connect interfaces across architectures (e.g., Bundle Protocol/IP), > > different variants the space domain (LEO/DeepSpace), phenomena > > (Delay/Disruptions down to relativistic effects), and entities (IETF, > > CCSDS, IOAG, but also the private players in the space, like > > Starlink). > > Did you consider rechartering dtnrg ? > > > That said, the meeting is really to figure out what the community > > thinks there is a need for, and indeed, whether there is a need for > > something like this. Why not come to the meeting (virtually or in > > person) to provide your views and inputs on things we could/should do? > > Of course, appreciate that the Bangkok timezone may not work out for > > some, but if we manage to get this going, we are hoping to have regular > > activities in other IETF meetings which will be in other time zones. > > It seems to me that there is research needed in predictable routing flaps= . > Most routing protocols today assume that failures are random. > > There is some work in RPL (RFC6550) as related to 6TISCH (TSCH) where > channels come and go already, but that is multiple times/second vs multip= le > times/hour. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ > > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ --=20 Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQoS "A perfect storm" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DCQX1PmRULU0