From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x331.google.com (mail-wm1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A50623B2A4 for ; Mon, 8 Aug 2022 18:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id h127-20020a1c2185000000b003a5360f218fso152205wmh.3 for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 15:41:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=YZ0yAO5Rfr9Htj3+y+4wV3ltMkA65u0kEbXGS/j6bo0=; b=jZx6lYPC0zECSnVshoGKxqKwSugweL/p5dzWOJONfob4H5VjZR425JURxPhiSmKu3t Q9vcDwVQ9qRks72sWt1uO0L5gcVgfMmBMfTYxb8Urf5kLOHCAnl0vxyMVid+7dxyVEwv ylUQS0IJpuwnJCOBrzWDkQbMKeVHOdmM+FXqp5Ne8mXyPYP1E0abLluTbOBZ+nNuSKjL OKk9BUPWvtxdYkeyopQYe3eoDQNxKBjBs0UClQgkyiSl8fGh/we21RYdsddkeYHE9qbR ieEij8ULAknnbhVt7LPbb1/TtlqChhagvyQA8JcjanLhwjjp+mO1JQv1D7VbZ7IteNIQ JCRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=YZ0yAO5Rfr9Htj3+y+4wV3ltMkA65u0kEbXGS/j6bo0=; b=5htsU13k70dfWwu8YKqe+OB9Wc9vKFHxs59NRh0nR//iLHktiRyhx49CgdIYrEoq3j IzX3+0wnDIZwAGPIF5A/LYwNVoaReCLAoZ9HF44sHlL4O8Xe6T5xfHkIs5qwHmdhpDYO aKzM95V2LfPTcQJevh+KcU1pxOLGZJHNiYy51azSCEOl1HaWnaJ6YmZIFt+3eF5rhtjB YmWHzwJh7zD7bDOFe/lppCnSxb+0czK3EAm9b8AuJp3PPqMWf9W+oaCjgommjSG2zSJW qjfWonijUqL9+VDrlrlCQ4rVUAHm8BiRxZ1J5Z8SMJPt46x++/tu3N2ULpy6kX1WOvVc +Fvg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo3QbTVsJMpr5KsaDMPY/CCZSEwVWiBJ5piPhnGzV5oSd5V8p/9B WAoDL0IatVvdqomBZ5879g9FbyHGyGEC9Edfv7U3xprfJMI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR61iEloHiwdnZdc3HxnwL2JQsCgm8p27SFYBT5qDk0/bXXGT3zxeH9ExZRiGFns6r7G1BmKhYnXl4dIscIdW4o= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:3ba5:b0:3a5:3e0c:2519 with SMTP id n37-20020a05600c3ba500b003a53e0c2519mr5131361wms.194.1659998489388; Mon, 08 Aug 2022 15:41:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1659994794.324713695@apps.rackspace.com> <3n65o07q-p244-7032-q2ps-7391s6621qp4@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <3n65o07q-p244-7032-q2ps-7391s6621qp4@ynat.uz> From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2022 15:41:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: "David P. Reed" , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] SIGCOMM MIT paper: Starvation in e2e congestion control X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2022 22:41:30 -0000 On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 3:37 PM David Lang via Starlink wrote: > > To quote from Tom Clancy (Hunt for Red Octover IIRC), it's possible to bo= th > increase security and increase access as a marine at a gate beats a padlo= ck for > both OT, dlang - how'd the wifi at SCALE go? > In computer security especially there are many examples of things that in= crease > security while decreasing error, increasing availablity, and (overall) > decreasing cost. > > sometimes it's 'pick 2', but all to frequently people actually opt for 'n= one of > the above' (i.e. sub-optimal in all areas) OT also, but a really good read: http://alexmckenzie.weebly.com/seeking-high-imp-reliability.html > > David Lang > > On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, David P. Reed via Starlink wrote: > > > 2) I absolutely hate folks who invent "theorems" that say you can have = "any two of three" properties. It's become popular in computer systems rese= arch, but it actually creates a huge intellectual mess. > > The CAP theorem, for example has some very peculiar definitions in orde= r to make C, A, and P "independent" axes. Of course they are NOT independen= t in engineering practice. In fact, they aren't even "binary" - there's no = "yes" or "no" to C, A or P - they are not even spectra that map to some inc= reasing sequence. > > Yes, you can't always get what you want. But you can almost always get = what you need, and that is never a specific two out of three. > > Especially not in queue management algorithms. > > Goddamn cutesy anti-intellectuals._____________________________________= __________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_code= l/ Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC