From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 546F43CB37 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 22:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-42155143cb0so20014315e9.2 for ; Thu, 06 Jun 2024 19:28:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1717727310; x=1718332110; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7XtIy7wq880lHJbmjDkkA382+fTNt00PU/fpb6/4ad4=; b=FPC2jLLT6FysVANYrqUFbvPP2t4Y4j/jtkRAEjfWbjVTjzN5G6FIhOtx25un+dBrd9 V4w7veD2t89SmzfwnK6EsSxvQ0bERI96kK7dXjCp3CR+LUTr6AYFuyKSVTEynEhHxX7t mXQ4iTn6WmnI0SRsLdBWvyobzTRDfVN0b4mNWDC6iC7Ulg2Z2cvaUX7zdFyn4EPaFTxA 8MGQ1oa72t9deGkqbW0ZRQEohWa9+Z7UeF0SW/wCXNU1U35WdhfmA6yjodAFG+1UqUEv qeB3dISHRIegaGidyiMZypIZGJW7yiU8VEZ+BupOTTVtIOf8Dx8IziuPULpg2+US7SXn pq/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717727310; x=1718332110; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=7XtIy7wq880lHJbmjDkkA382+fTNt00PU/fpb6/4ad4=; b=c0WOxn2gt/eYvqHTzlR10jEqvr0GR+HiJ4AfFH5Ok6ACspIjpxiz0mlg5J3zzCN+1I 0lVXHl9WtBaHx7b1YtU72nAH04h24GO91TPu/vOAO5BXjD7tkxqxcH3Y6GPUieJfzafj wd7StLPe0ZkLkTNFXvLHXkPmCb/Gwld1qwdDutS9ljvFm+RQt1CaLS10cw5XXS91dvs4 bHiJVW8OS/SMSZbaQ5YCpTtpBMB2BBiDlBL0hXlom2uuTSS1kxiYh7+lDjyjkytd8YA7 +Kcr5svyg5qlp37vLq79ozDkJPcBPU4W/RzLse5COYM0zIjl3oeEXUmxJfYWYPPVDG7V XzFg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUUHZIWTJo9CABuF3/IfAR6qd4QCQl9MXwm5Q9btDgBROxP+y5+pgUU+BLZKABXMq+6htlbFwVn0MznUqtG7zW00XNWa0WjVqjyMb5DOgQ= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwWhCR4LTaLIDdoF6+X2w9PGaKyHqbn4tcybr0lMl4yWZsNmQ57 udNqoyLMM9k9O1HYltu2VI4B+3jSL4S5MLqwSnBoXuvOdw98XomDjmaBckOJynHt9+vgw9bxujS u2X6vWP31R6oaRpDftAJvY7exrb4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFISdep3+3oVOIjFx7vj/KDHOWnbwepn2Cgr3vBs2CQpYLKY+7l7jhaI/RSNIBMbyBBDdS/jJQLYlv4wKpN/B8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:4f95:b0:421:2bf5:2362 with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-42164a44713mr11621095e9.39.1717727310010; Thu, 06 Jun 2024 19:28:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org> <79C02ABB-B2A6-4B4D-98F4-6540D3F96EBB@ieee.org> <7E918B58-382A-4793-A144-13A7075CA56C@connectivitycap.com> <13rq2389-9012-p95n-s494-q3pp070s497n@ynat.uz> <6qop2p3o-351p-788q-q1q2-86sosnq3rn21@ynat.uz> <3FF32F52-4A93-496B-85FF-00020FA4A48B@gmx.de> <08F6942E-CC08-4956-B92E-CBEC091D86E4@ieee.org> <2F510BD5-2D7E-4A6A-A3DE-C529D14F6FBC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2024 19:28:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stuart Cheshire Cc: Rich Brown , Starlink , Colin_Higbie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000022606d061a438e2f" Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2024 02:28:31 -0000 --00000000000022606d061a438e2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I occasionally am happy to point out the 150+ isps now running libreqos and cake... the several hundred running preseem and paraqum and bequant... As a rule of thumb about 10k wisp subscribers eat around 25gbit. This we (libreqos anyway) can do easily on a 1500 dollar whitebox (and we have pushed it past 60gbit in the v1.5 release entering beta shortly). This is usually way more capability than any given isp network segment needs... The wisps have got fq codel available native in much of their gear too, and of course starlink on their wifi... There are probably 60k isps left to go though. There are isps still on docsis 3.0. I tend to regard these issues nowadays as being demand side as these solutions are so widely available now... But with billions being spent to just upgrade to fiber... a dark cloud ahead is above 50mbit most of the bloat moves to the wifi... and despite eero, openwrt, Google fiber etc that have been getting it right... sigh. A bright light at the moment there is all the wifi products coming out with a mt79 chip. On Thu, Jun 6, 2024, 10:51=E2=80=AFAM Stuart Cheshire = wrote: > On Jun 4, 2024, at 16:03, Rich Brown wrote: > > > Yeah... I didn't write that as carefully as I could have. I was > switching between "user voice" (who'll say 'speed') and "expert" voice (I > know the difference). Check it now: > https://randomneuronsfiring.com/all-the-reasons-that-bufferbloat-isnt-a-p= roblem/ > > Thanks for doing that. > > How about also changing =E2=80=9Cnew faster ISP plan=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9Cnew bigger ISP plan=E2=80=9D? I > know that may sound like a slightly weird phrase, but getting people=E2= =80=99s > attention by surprising them a little can be beneficial. If it looks weir= d > to them and that makes them pause and think, then that=E2=80=99s good. > > If the hypothetical ISP imagined here were actually willing to offer a > plan that truly provided consistently *faster* connectivity instead of ju= st > more of the same, we=E2=80=99d be very happy. The truth today is that mos= t IPs > offer *bigger*, not *better*. They are selling quantity, not quality. > > (I am intentionally not lumping *all* ISPs into the same bucket here. > Some, like Comcast, are actually making big efforts to improve quality as > well as quantity. Comcast dramatically reduced the working latency of my > cable modem during the work-from-home pandemic, and they continue to work > on improving that even more. I want to be sure to give credit where it is > deserved.) > > Stuart Cheshire > > --00000000000022606d061a438e2f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I occasionally am happy to point out the 150+ isps now ru= nning libreqos and cake... the several hundred running preseem and paraqum = and bequant...

As a rule of th= umb about 10k wisp subscribers eat around 25gbit. This we (libreqos anyway)= can do easily on a 1500 dollar whitebox (and we have pushed it past 60gbit= in the v1.5 release entering beta shortly). This is usually way more capab= ility than any given isp network segment needs...=C2=A0

The wisps have got fq codel available nativ= e in much of their gear too, and of course starlink on their wifi...=C2=A0<= /div>

There are probably 60k i= sps left to go though. There are isps still on docsis 3.0.=C2=A0 I tend to = regard these issues nowadays as being demand side as these solutions are so= widely available now...=C2=A0

But with billions being spent to just upgrade to fiber... a dark clo= ud ahead is above 50mbit most of the bloat moves to the wifi... and despite= eero, openwrt, Google fiber etc that have been getting it right... sigh.

A bright light at the mom= ent there is all the wifi products coming out with a mt79 chip.
=
On Thu= , Jun 6, 2024, 10:51=E2=80=AFAM Stuart Cheshire <cheshire@apple.com> wrote:
On Jun 4, 2024, at 16:03, Rich Brown <richb.hanover@g= mail.com> wrote:

> Yeah... I didn't write that as carefully as I could have. I was sw= itching between "user voice" (who'll say 'speed') and= "expert" voice (I know the difference). Check it now: https://randomneuro= nsfiring.com/all-the-reasons-that-bufferbloat-isnt-a-problem/

Thanks for doing that.

How about also changing =E2=80=9Cnew faster ISP plan=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cn= ew bigger ISP plan=E2=80=9D? I know that may sound like a slightly weird ph= rase, but getting people=E2=80=99s attention by surprising them a little ca= n be beneficial. If it looks weird to them and that makes them pause and th= ink, then that=E2=80=99s good.

If the hypothetical ISP imagined here were actually willing to offer a plan= that truly provided consistently *faster* connectivity instead of just mor= e of the same, we=E2=80=99d be very happy. The truth today is that most IPs= offer *bigger*, not *better*. They are selling quantity, not quality.

(I am intentionally not lumping *all* ISPs into the same bucket here. Some,= like Comcast, are actually making big efforts to improve quality as well a= s quantity. Comcast dramatically reduced the working latency of my cable mo= dem during the work-from-home pandemic, and they continue to work on improv= ing that even more. I want to be sure to give credit where it is deserved.)=

Stuart Cheshire

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