From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DC573B2A4 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 23:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-413ef770363so3263205e9.2 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 20:30:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1710387034; x=1710991834; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=4V0WxNvUdEIGHR8MkagQsDPp6BMsKj4GIRZOysHvSIk=; b=ENPA7MMIAzjBv7nzHLqwWi0iVTxBvQtgadMUy9fxYKK29EATpoRb3kGrHiE2J9PRli OX7yPwWgHU4U78x1zblX17UK7AqRAKAls+eW6RkXBXy7hCNCa003/yK+bl9C7xczXVSo o6cgq9NZPkgXEH0w+0a2ScvHqQt4SKGQtln0LEjo+vIDensAhEx70FGeZkJh6PsDVQls 0Rym2Q1k7ut1K1JCT2WHIA2FRqpR8sNHg1Yu8a02e4PMPXALh3RilTTioBGwlcpPRw5T 5BVFWnDqj/AlIncvlyfqSEw5sqQ6akYzrX5wRKtEn1e/kYVKezs80CpnBlvPcreHZaY9 wk4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1710387034; x=1710991834; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=4V0WxNvUdEIGHR8MkagQsDPp6BMsKj4GIRZOysHvSIk=; b=omjdRyNZHOWGKob61KvXesKuZ4UO3eF8UsSBO58fs2kF/7f8tJ+3jYG+rLCGr1S8k8 dYJFt1U7n2b7afBvN+kcMOI2H3Y1gh0z4Cwyz+NCYyiA/R7KVpPYpj2UF4ZVhuleggcy rI5gajino3cGMn+z9e3ZJ+wG3Uwjj2ymGV4eb/QKaCaCnyE2J0QCKoEupgV2PpEwAG+j 9oisv8qyL8ktb3Vi046dgE6s2ZmaiJmkmiIJrzJ3aniGGbA4Gywrwtde42rNxCoruX9z 5WX4pHKGc1P4nha10ttfOvq1xjxtvwd+D5vsqR5WKupOGA8AMlmxBGGWS8nrevka8M+r EH+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxJvGOTYRhHUrDHuztWKUfoz0j5gfyNFv/GZzqyCOA72rpwETuW +eIA/L8DoJk0QiQSInYNsRX3enhSc/L2DAXw4QTZd7JFq8ec17k2dIA4K+TWNNZygufChO371F4 lpi116Qa2j+lvheS5pZTLmtE/P0M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEEJLsFtylu8GU6C9GJDP98Tuc1TOQ46rAILfihB30Pgy9h4YKUcFHpSMjMf1NUu1B/w2ZeBDuQE11TU/WTRvM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:190a:b0:412:beee:36b3 with SMTP id j10-20020a05600c190a00b00412beee36b3mr392115wmq.7.1710387033951; Wed, 13 Mar 2024 20:30:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 23:30:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow Cc: Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] FCC Denies Starlink Low-Orbit Bid for Lower Latency (Mark Harris) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 03:30:35 -0000 To elon=C2=B4s comment - for gaming, consistent latency is more important than low latency. Most game netcode can compensate for a consistent range of rtts in the 20-100ms range, but not jitter in that range or beyond. Certainly consistently low latency is great for gaming (vr/ar) also, and a big benefit is in improving PLT. Another note inline below: On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 10:00=E2=80=AFPM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow v= ia Starlink wrote: > > Agency says SpaceX craft could hinder International Space Station > EXCERPT: > > The FCC has once again rejected a Starlink plan to deploy thousands of in= ternet satellites in very low earth orbits (VLEO) ranging from 340 to 360 k= ilometers. In an order published last week, the FCC wrote: =E2=80=9CSpaceX = may not deploy any satellites designed for operational altitudes below the = International Space Station,=E2=80=9D whose orbit can range as low as 370 k= ilometers. Simplest answers: Raise the orbit of ISS. Or let it burn. It doesn=C2=B4t need to get serviced from Russia anymore. I have a story about Space Station Freedom[1]=C2=B4s conversion to become the ISS, from late 1993, that not a lot of people know. I met an engineer who had just quit NASA in rage, because in the great political compromise of the day, after the 7th redesign and scaledown - that to bring the Russians in, they moved the orbit from being convenient to Canaveral, to convenient from Baikonur (51.6 degrees), and changed the name from Freedom to "The ISS". He was calling himself "Crazy Horse". He was mad because this move "in partnership" did not save money, but cost (possibly 3x!) more in the long run, and put extra stresses on the Space Shuttle to get to that orbit - and yet it was being pitched by the politicians as a cost saver. It was, perhaps needed, to "save the program" - but the true costs of the orbit change so far as I know have never been calculated or written about. The former nasa engineer, "Crazy Horse", was alternatively manic, and suicidal. He was in really bad shape. We spent a week together, drinking, talking space stuff, walking the beach, trading off guitar licks, and sitting in the hot tub at Pigeon Point Lighthouse on the california coast with a variety of foreign travelers (mostly girls!), able to clearly see the milky way and our tattered dreams. In the end I incorporated part of his story in mine. I=C2=B4d blocked out everything about NASA and space in '86, the day I saw Feynman gave his famous demonstration showing why Challenger blew - not because of the flaw in the tang, but because lawyers had no respect for the laws of physics. It was not seeing Feynman=C2=B4s demonstration that burnt me, but the politicians positioning themselves for the cameras, oblivious to the physics. The real Crazy Horse=C2=B4s backstory has some analogies worth grokking als= o. To this day I do not remember that ex-NASA-engineer=C2=B4s real name, or if he lived through his pain or not, or found some other career. Maybe it=C2=B4s on the hostel register from that week. The hot tub at Pigeon Point there fell into the ocean, long ago. He became Rhysling, in my song, "Rhysling and me" [2], which we wrote and scribbled down on the register at that hostel. I don=C2=B4t fully remember the lyric about him, and would have to go back to look. Something like "Crazy Horse stood high upon the mountain... 51.6 too hard to climb, and freedom too hard to redesign". 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Station_Freedom - the change of orbit is not in this page... 2) https://the-edge.blogspot.com/2003_02_16_the-edge_archive.html I have mostly retired the song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DxTPJO-cAAjQ and replaced it with happier stuff, since 2004, and the spaceshipone launches, but I still get =C2=B486 flashbacks, on the eve of a new launch. Not so much when people are not on it, though. Gosh, tomorrow is going to be grand. ... > Starlink currently has nearly 6000 satellites orbiting at around 550 kilo= meters that provide internet access to over 2.5 million customers around th= e world. But its service is currently slower than most terrestrial fiber ne= tworks, with average latencies (the time for data to travel between origin = and destination) over 30 milliseconds at best, and double that at peak time= s. > > =E2=80=9CIf you fill that region with tens of thousands of satellites, it= would put an even bigger squeeze on them and really compromise your abilit= y to service the space station.=E2=80=9D > > =E2=80=94HUGH LEWIS, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHAMPTON, U.K. > > > =E2=80=9CThe biggest single goal for Starlink from a technical standpoint= is to get the mean latency below 20 milliseconds,=E2=80=9D said Elon Musk = at a SpaceX event in January. =E2=80=9CFor the quality of internet experien= ce, this is actually a really big deal. If you play video games like I some= times do, this is also important, otherwise you lose.=E2=80=9D Well, fixing the jitter counts for more. So long as you don=C2=B4t bounce around much more than 60ms most netcode can compensate. > The easiest way to reduce latency is to simply shorten the distance the d= ata have to travel. So in a February letter, SpaceX pleaded with the FCC to= allow its VLEO constellation: =E2=80=9COperating at these lower altitudes = will enable SpaceX to provide higher-quality, lower-latency satellite servi= ce for consumers, keeping pace with growing demand for real-time applicatio= ns.=E2=80=9D These now include the military use of Starlink for communicati= ons in warzones such as Ukraine. > > Starlink also argued that its VLEO satellites would have collision probab= ilities ten times lower than those in higher orbits, and be easier to deorb= it at the end of their functional lives. > > But the FCC was having none of it. The agency had already deferred VLEO o= perations when it licensed Starlink operations in December 2022, and used v= ery similar languages in its order last week: =E2=80=9CSpaceX must communic= ate and collaborate with NASA to ensure that deployment and operation of it= s satellites does not unduly constrain deployment and operation of NASA ass= ets and missions, supports safety of both SpaceX and NASA assets and missio= ns, and preserves long-term sustainable space-based communications services= .=E2=80=9D > > Neither the FCC nor SpaceX replied to requests for comment, but the agenc= y=E2=80=99s reasoning is probably quite simple, according to Hugh Lewis, pr= ofessor of astronautics at the University of Southampton in the U.K. =E2=80= =9CWe don=E2=80=99t understand enough about what the risks actually are, es= pecially because the number of satellites that SpaceX is proposing is great= er than the number they=E2=80=99ve already launched,=E2=80=9D he says... > > [...] > https://spectrum.ieee.org/starlink-vleo-below-iss > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DN0Tmvv5jJKs Epik Mellon Podcast Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos