From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53ACD3CB67; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id v20-20020a05600c471400b003ed8826253aso2170896wmo.0; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 06:41:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680097264; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=hV2JzQMOfIOOiGTI2bLIDFIuQwBuOvYvzR3mJ/KJcek=; b=HgsU4S9ZzrtIJLscfdHEYcU4110of8N7vJ1RF3HknawWYO1UpxhasoSPa4rM7V5CXI oexW0YyfOBWhl68d3F08OpZtKw2iJQXFFCYM2fdfhmFv+4UlMez1xamb914ENuewJQLb +hKc+US9TwWGnK2udOQcrdkKdYnG1aEauc/7WBuDPDwE+kdWjnMGKBX5er3n4FgA83KF 1x0TWUUMnpdKzOLXG5cqrxeM++AtRppCLpKz7aGhe6bborEyfN3025YhsL6lZd9EuLRC YcCW5ZYFlK5eCE6M5ZLrmmNeL2Lg2MizP/3/Cy6+ieTWxiUCej8ak/1fpIcGHKOd55uN EKLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680097264; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=hV2JzQMOfIOOiGTI2bLIDFIuQwBuOvYvzR3mJ/KJcek=; b=fncbMVgzYNy8RgksZizlpEaSybrV+ikQd5n9V7wP5LB1KWXtI4J9hnpvxU+cSVE7AN vOJZTltFZV3rOOxxLisLXO+7xT81nHMkk2Q9ficBd7i0wCf10Bw/kZwHPDaqq5gIlD4y sqC9nofOnHH8Wtawo4jkKN5KNfHNZxPdE2IExzBVRWShvSSuMTzbVrPHNcXHCut9JHdd 9iNFH2qfxsMhHmslBI8hxuueqU9m2Wn5UJs6GB/JsFP+VnzNBzQ1EF9EfvFSA7L/gmJV PzIQFhfXNuYjQ7q8Fr0fqGuu3aCKlOAIjgbXS+rZcX+ENa+7j9c1BE5lpEEg5ERR6Ti+ sIRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUbgO3oDlXy8jkGHpCZQtYK/nS10dTPC2Sec0hHfEpHzwotWStq XmLHjBTvZI8OFrXkOVKnBi47+cijExv6BSZcWqVpzIxYWqo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/H/8eR6cnwZBOELnq90bFMJ4f8EWc9Ay3h3Q3nPhQsSKMkf1nY2OBtJ6UXSqyg8QG6vVTyhzoj4BoMfd8TMhU= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:ca58:0:b0:3ed:d6cb:d025 with SMTP id m24-20020a7bca58000000b003edd6cbd025mr4548736wml.0.1680097263920; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 06:41:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> In-Reply-To: <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 06:40:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Doc Searls Cc: Dave Collier-Brown , Dave Taht via Starlink , libreqos , bloat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Starlink] Enabling a production model X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:41:05 -0000 Doc: thank you for giving me a way to express the promise of fiber to enable a better "production model", in what you wrote below. Btw, folks, I am doing an AMA with broadband.io on friday, with a live chat. It is a chance for us techies to engage more directly with the state directors with $70B of government funding as part of the NTIA BEAD program and others like internet4all - and to help focus them on things that would result in a genuinely better internet. I plan to focus more on reducing latency and improving interoperability than bufferbloat, but I have no idea what will happen. "This broadband of which you speak... does it have IPv6?". Please come!? I would love it if more folk with experience all around the world, in what can be done right and wrong with a broadband rollout, if they showed up to help us here in the USA. https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 6:22=E2=80=AFAM Doc Searls via Starlink wrote: > > Always a mistake to generalize from a sample of one, but in my case I hav= e four, because I live in four places. So I like to think that, to some deg= ree, I represent a kind of market demand. > > All those places=E2=80=94Santa Barbara (CA), New York (NY), Bloomington (= IN), and San Marino (CA)=E2=80=94are served by cable monopolies (Cox, Spect= rum, Comcast/Xfinity) that provide (or at least claim) 1 Gb service... down= stream of course. One (Cox) provides 36 Mb of upstream capacity. The other = two provide just 10 Mb. Because of that, residents have no option to do mu= ch work, or to store large amounts of data, in clouds (to mention just one = grace of upstream capacity). The market is rigged for consumption, not prod= uction, on the TV model. Same as it has been since commercial activity bega= n to explode in 1995, when John Perry Barlow wrote Death From Above. It's k= iller. Please read it: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/203356.203358. I have been citing that piece left and right lately. > But here in Bloomington, where I am writing now, the city has come up wit= h a public/private arrangement that has much promise: > > https://www.bloomington.in.gov/fiber I think the smartest thing any city can do to start with, is to establish a good ole-fashioned internet exchange point there, require those providing service in the city to interconnect, > > See what you think. > > For me, the promise of fiber is a huge attraction to living and working h= ere. And I am not alone. > > Doc > > On Mar 29, 2023, at 8:27 AM, Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink wrote: > > > On 3/29/23 04:28, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > > On Mar 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon wrote: > > Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this (stru= ctural separation) right. > > There really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access network a= nd terminate the per household fibers in arge enough "exchanges" there you = offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the premise that customers can use a= ny ISP they want (that is present in the exchange)... and on ISP change wil= l just be patched differently in the exchange. > While I think that local "government" also could successfully run interne= t access services, I see no reason why they should do so (unless there is n= o competition). > The goal here is to move the "natural monopoly" of the access network out= of the hand of the "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing resource= allocation instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions, on either sid= e). > > > We see the same issue in Canada: some provinces and cities happily > manage the delivery of services over cables hung from province-owned > poles (eg, TCP/IP in New Brunswick). Other provinces did less well, and > we have "telephone poles" and "hydro poles" on the same street (in > Toronto, Ontario) > > There is no real difference between New Brunswick, Ontario or, for that > matter, Minnesota. If a province or city has operated natural monopolies > like the last mile for water and sewer, it can operate the last mile for > any other monopoly. > > --dave > > -- > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including= any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only f= or the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, = copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confide= ntiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please noti= fy the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message = from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not = constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by elect= ronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment = or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this tele= communication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal docu= mentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has be= en signed by an authorized signatory. > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 AMA March 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC