I wonder what oleg thinks the starlink repairability index is? On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:46 AM David Fernández via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers they give > for Internet access, which are built for that: > https://www.orange.com/en/commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environment > > France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know > better what are you buying: > https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite > > Then, there is the one from iFixit: > > https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different-than-the-french-repair-index > > Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals > all around the world. > > Regards, > > David > > > Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400 > > From: dan > > To: Dave Taht > > Cc: Rpm , libreqos > > , Bruce Perens , > > Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat > > , David Lang > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi > > Message-ID: > > < > CAA_JP8W4B6ixcYjijJ8FyA+PAXpLTLjvvKH5-dGjB-UaanC3dQ@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote: > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm > >> > >> > wrote: > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference > >> center, they > >> > >> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the > >> place is > >> > >> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with > >> users, the > >> > >> >> entire network collapses. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse > environments, > >> so it's > >> > >> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and > >> louder if > >> > >> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and > >> reduces the > >> > >> >> available airtime. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed > over > >> 100 APs > >> > >> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the > >> attendees > >> > >> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could > be > >> re-used > >> > >> >> more readily. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as > >> > >> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you > >> > >> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?) > >> > >> > >> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people > >> commenting on > >> > >> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't > >> get good > >> > >> monitoring in place. No cake yet. > >> > >> > >> I think this is what you mean > >> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0 > >> > >> > >> > >> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that > >> you do not need the latest > >> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the > >> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured, > >> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers > >> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and > >> reflashed. > >> > >> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+ > >> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled, > >> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image > >> for em, reflashed and redistributed them. > >> > >> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last > >> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over > >> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power > >> supply! > >> > >> > >> > Did you get any good stats? > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Run cake anywhere? > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but > >> with wifi > >> > >> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the > fewest > >> possible > >> > >> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for > >> your > >> > >> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection > to > >> your > >> > >> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter > and > >> airtime > >> > >> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that > it's > >> > >> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). > >> Wire/fiber for the > >> > >> >> uplink is much better. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> David Lang > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> On Wed, 15 Mar > >> > >> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house > is a > >> huge > >> > >> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try > to > >> > >> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds > >> into > >> > >> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with > >> >>> output > >> > >> >>> turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels > 50ft > >> away > >> > >> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' > >> model, > >> > >> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it > >> >>> requires > >> > >> >>> infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure > >> today and > >> > >> >>> accounts for most access complaints. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access > SSID > >> > >> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with > better > >> (and > >> > >> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall > off > >> prem > >> > >> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a > home > >> is > >> > >> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems > that > >> are > >> > >> >>> top sellers and top performers today. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died > out > >> of > >> > >> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline > network. I > >> have > >> > >> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model > works > >> > >> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so > I'm > >> > >> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have > 802.11n > >> > >> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This > >> model, > >> > >> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or > >> WiFi7 > >> > >> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and > deployable > >> by > >> > >> >>> consumers setup. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and > >> > >> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's > >> >>> in > >> > >> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of > >> unfrastructure > >> > >> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, > security > >> and > >> > >> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated > >> >>> by > >> > >> >>> stakeholders of those networks. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon > > >> wrote: > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and > >> >>>> very > >> > >> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color > coded > >> to > >> > >> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by > installers > >> > >> >>>> per those chanspecs. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY > >> >>>> rates > >> > >> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the > >> > >> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless > >> isn't > >> > >> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a > >> >>>> dog > >> > >> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from > >> >>>> block > >> > >> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation > >> > >> >>>> systems, etc. > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that > >> and > >> > >> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the > RRH > >> > >> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better > than > >> > >> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. > Congestion? > >> Add > >> > >> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10) > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero > >> > >> >>>> engineering resources assigned. > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>>> Bob > >> > >> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon > >> > >> >>>>> wrote: > >> > >> >>>>> > >> > >> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation > >> >>>>>> has > >> > >> >>>>>> to halt. > >> > >> >>>>> > >> > >> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden > >> > >> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next > >> > >> >>>>> room. > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >> Bloat mailing list > >> > >> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >> Rpm mailing list > >> > >> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ > >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >> > > > > Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially > > poorly made. Ie, engineered for our disposable market. Lots of netgear > > products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if > that, > > and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed > them. > > > > > > I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give > > them longer life. To the point, it’s not realistic to recycle these > items > > from the US to other place because they were ‘built to fail’. > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230315/5ca4404e/attachment.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 24, Issue 37 > > **************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > -- Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos