Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[David Fernández]

ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers they give
for Internet access, which are built for that:
https://www.orange.com/en/commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environment

France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know
better what are you buying:
https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite

Then, there is the one from iFixit:
https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different-than-the-french-repair-index

Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals
all around the world.

Regards,

David

> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400
> From: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>
> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> Cc: Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, libreqos
> 	<libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>,
> 	Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>,  bloat
> 	<bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, David Lang <david@lang.hm>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat]  [LibreQoS] On FiWi
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAA_JP8W4B6ixcYjijJ8FyA+PAXpLTLjvvKH5-dGjB-UaanC3dQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
>>
>> > <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference
>> center, they
>>
>> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the
>> place is
>>
>> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with
>> users, the
>>
>> >> entire network collapses.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments,
>> so it's
>>
>> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and
>> louder if
>>
>> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and
>> reduces the
>>
>> >> available airtime.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over
>> 100 APs
>>
>> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the
>> attendees
>>
>> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be
>> re-used
>>
>> >> more readily.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
>>
>> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
>>
>> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)
>>
>>
>> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people
>> commenting on
>>
>> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't
>> get good
>>
>> monitoring in place. No cake yet.
>>
>>
>> I think this is what you mean
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0
>>
>>
>>
>> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that
>> you do not need the latest
>> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the
>> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured,
>> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers
>> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and
>> reflashed.
>>
>> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+
>> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled,
>> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image
>> for em, reflashed and redistributed them.
>>
>> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last
>> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over
>> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power
>> supply!
>>
>>
>> > Did you get any good stats?
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Run cake anywhere?
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but
>> with wifi
>>
>> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest
>> possible
>>
>> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for
>> your
>>
>> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to
>> your
>>
>> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and
>> airtime
>>
>> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's
>>
>> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas).
>> Wire/fiber for the
>>
>> >> uplink is much better.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> David Lang
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>   On Wed, 15 Mar
>>
>> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a
>> huge
>>
>> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks.  MOAR power to try to
>>
>> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds
>> into
>>
>> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with
>> >>> output
>>
>> >>> turned down to minimum.    Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft
>> away
>>
>> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb'
>> model,
>>
>> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it
>> >>> requires
>>
>> >>> infrastructure cabling.  1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure
>> today and
>>
>> >>> accounts for most access complaints.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID
>>
>> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better
>> (and
>>
>> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off
>> prem
>>
>> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home
>> is
>>
>> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that
>> are
>>
>> >>> top sellers and top performers today.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out
>> of
>>
>> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network.  I
>> have
>>
>> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works
>>
>> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm
>>
>> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n
>>
>> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.   This
>> model,
>>
>> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or
>> WiFi7
>>
>> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable
>> by
>>
>> >>> consumers setup.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
>>
>> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's
>> >>> in
>>
>> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of
>> unfrastructure
>>
>> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security
>> and
>>
>> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated
>> >>> by
>>
>> >>> stakeholders of those networks.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and
>> >>>> very
>>
>> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded
>> to
>>
>> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
>>
>> >>>> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY
>> >>>> rates
>>
>> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
>>
>> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless
>> isn't
>>
>> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a
>> >>>> dog
>>
>> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from
>> >>>> block
>>
>> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
>>
>> >>>> systems, etc.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that
>> and
>>
>> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
>>
>> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
>>
>> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion?
>> Add
>>
>> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
>>
>> >>>> engineering resources assigned.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Bob
>>
>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
>>
>> >>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation
>> >>>>>> has
>>
>> >>>>>> to halt.
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
>>
>> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
>>
>> >>>>> room.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> >> Bloat mailing list
>>
>> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>>
>> >> Rpm mailing list
>>
>> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>
>
> Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially
> poorly made.  Ie, engineered for our disposable market.  Lots of netgear
> products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if that,
> and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed them.
>
>
> I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give
> them longer life.  To the point, it’s not realistic to recycle these items
> from the US to other place because they were ‘built to fail’.
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230315/5ca4404e/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Starlink Digest, Vol 24, Issue 37
> ****************************************
>

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Dave Taht]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 12775 bytes --]

I wonder what oleg thinks the starlink repairability index is?

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:46 AM David Fernández via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers they give
> for Internet access, which are built for that:
> https://www.orange.com/en/commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environment
>
> France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know
> better what are you buying:
> https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite
>
> Then, there is the one from iFixit:
>
> https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different-than-the-french-repair-index
>
> Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals
> all around the world.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> > Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400
> > From: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>
> > To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> > Cc: Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, libreqos
> >       <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>,
> >       Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>,  bloat
> >       <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, David Lang <david@lang.hm>
> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat]  [LibreQoS] On FiWi
> > Message-ID:
> >       <
> CAA_JP8W4B6ixcYjijJ8FyA+PAXpLTLjvvKH5-dGjB-UaanC3dQ@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
> >>
> >> > <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference
> >> center, they
> >>
> >> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the
> >> place is
> >>
> >> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with
> >> users, the
> >>
> >> >> entire network collapses.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse
> environments,
> >> so it's
> >>
> >> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and
> >> louder if
> >>
> >> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and
> >> reduces the
> >>
> >> >> available airtime.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed
> over
> >> 100 APs
> >>
> >> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the
> >> attendees
> >>
> >> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could
> be
> >> re-used
> >>
> >> >> more readily.
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
> >>
> >> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
> >>
> >> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)
> >>
> >>
> >> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people
> >> commenting on
> >>
> >> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't
> >> get good
> >>
> >> monitoring in place. No cake yet.
> >>
> >>
> >> I think this is what you mean
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that
> >> you do not need the latest
> >> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the
> >> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured,
> >> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers
> >> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and
> >> reflashed.
> >>
> >> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+
> >> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled,
> >> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image
> >> for em, reflashed and redistributed them.
> >>
> >> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last
> >> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over
> >> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power
> >> supply!
> >>
> >>
> >> > Did you get any good stats?
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> > Run cake anywhere?
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but
> >> with wifi
> >>
> >> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the
> fewest
> >> possible
> >>
> >> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for
> >> your
> >>
> >> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection
> to
> >> your
> >>
> >> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter
> and
> >> airtime
> >>
> >> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that
> it's
> >>
> >> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas).
> >> Wire/fiber for the
> >>
> >> >> uplink is much better.
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> David Lang
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>   On Wed, 15 Mar
> >>
> >> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house
> is a
> >> huge
> >>
> >> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks.  MOAR power to try
> to
> >>
> >> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds
> >> into
> >>
> >> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with
> >> >>> output
> >>
> >> >>> turned down to minimum.    Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels
> 50ft
> >> away
> >>
> >> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb'
> >> model,
> >>
> >> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it
> >> >>> requires
> >>
> >> >>> infrastructure cabling.  1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure
> >> today and
> >>
> >> >>> accounts for most access complaints.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access
> SSID
> >>
> >> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with
> better
> >> (and
> >>
> >> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall
> off
> >> prem
> >>
> >> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a
> home
> >> is
> >>
> >> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems
> that
> >> are
> >>
> >> >>> top sellers and top performers today.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died
> out
> >> of
> >>
> >> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline
> network.  I
> >> have
> >>
> >> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model
> works
> >>
> >> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so
> I'm
> >>
> >> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have
> 802.11n
> >>
> >> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.   This
> >> model,
> >>
> >> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or
> >> WiFi7
> >>
> >> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and
> deployable
> >> by
> >>
> >> >>> consumers setup.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
> >>
> >> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's
> >> >>> in
> >>
> >> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of
> >> unfrastructure
> >>
> >> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired,
> security
> >> and
> >>
> >> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated
> >> >>> by
> >>
> >> >>> stakeholders of those networks.
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>>
> >>
> >> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and
> >> >>>> very
> >>
> >> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color
> coded
> >> to
> >>
> >> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by
> installers
> >>
> >> >>>> per those chanspecs.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY
> >> >>>> rates
> >>
> >> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
> >>
> >> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless
> >> isn't
> >>
> >> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a
> >> >>>> dog
> >>
> >> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from
> >> >>>> block
> >>
> >> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
> >>
> >> >>>> systems, etc.
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that
> >> and
> >>
> >> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the
> RRH
> >>
> >> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better
> than
> >>
> >> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades.
> Congestion?
> >> Add
> >>
> >> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
> >>
> >> >>>> engineering resources assigned.
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>>> Bob
> >>
> >> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
> >>
> >> >>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>>>>
> >>
> >> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation
> >> >>>>>> has
> >>
> >> >>>>>> to halt.
> >>
> >> >>>>>
> >>
> >> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
> >>
> >> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
> >>
> >> >>>>> room.
> >>
> >> >>>>
> >>
> >> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> >> Bloat mailing list
> >>
> >> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>
> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> >> Rpm mailing list
> >>
> >> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>
> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
> >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> >>
> >
> > Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially
> > poorly made.  Ie, engineered for our disposable market.  Lots of netgear
> > products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if
> that,
> > and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed
> them.
> >
> >
> > I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give
> > them longer life.  To the point, it’s not realistic to recycle these
> items
> > from the US to other place because they were ‘built to fail’.
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > <
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230315/5ca4404e/attachment.html
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 24, Issue 37
> > ****************************************
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>


-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[dan]

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On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
>
>
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
>
> > <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference
> center, they
>
> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the
> place is
>
> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with
> users, the
>
> >> entire network collapses.
>
> >>
>
> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments,
> so it's
>
> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and
> louder if
>
> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and
> reduces the
>
> >> available airtime.
>
> >>
>
> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over
> 100 APs
>
> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the
> attendees
>
> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be
> re-used
>
> >> more readily.
>
> >
>
> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
>
> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
>
> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)
>
>
> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people
> commenting on
>
> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't
> get good
>
> monitoring in place. No cake yet.
>
>
> I think this is what you mean
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0
>
>
>
> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that
> you do not need the latest
> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the
> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured,
> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers
> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and
> reflashed.
>
> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+
> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled,
> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image
> for em, reflashed and redistributed them.
>
> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last
> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over
> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power
> supply!
>
>
> > Did you get any good stats?
>
> >
>
> > Run cake anywhere?
>
> >>
>
> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but
> with wifi
>
> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest
> possible
>
> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
>
> >>
>
> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for
> your
>
> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to
> your
>
> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and
> airtime
>
> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's
>
> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas).
> Wire/fiber for the
>
> >> uplink is much better.
>
> >>
>
> >> David Lang
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>   On Wed, 15 Mar
>
> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a
> huge
>
> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks.  MOAR power to try to
>
> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds
> into
>
> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output
>
> >>> turned down to minimum.    Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft
> away
>
> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb'
> model,
>
> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires
>
> >>> infrastructure cabling.  1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure
> today and
>
> >>> accounts for most access complaints.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID
>
> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better
> (and
>
> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off
> prem
>
> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home
> is
>
> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that
> are
>
> >>> top sellers and top performers today.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out
> of
>
> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network.  I
> have
>
> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works
>
> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm
>
> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n
>
> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.   This
> model,
>
> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or
> WiFi7
>
> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable
> by
>
> >>> consumers setup.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
>
> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in
>
> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
>
> >>>
>
> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of
> unfrastructure
>
> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security
> and
>
> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by
>
> >>> stakeholders of those networks.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very
>
> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded
> to
>
> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
>
> >>>> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates
>
> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
>
> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless
> isn't
>
> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog
>
> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block
>
> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
>
> >>>> systems, etc.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that
> and
>
> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
>
> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
>
> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion?
> Add
>
> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
>
> >>>> engineering resources assigned.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Bob
>
> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
>
> >>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has
>
> >>>>>> to halt.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
>
> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
>
> >>>>> room.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>> _______________________________________________
>
> >> Bloat mailing list
>
> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
> >> _______________________________________________
>
> >> Rpm mailing list
>
> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>

Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially
poorly made.  Ie, engineered for our disposable market.  Lots of netgear
products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if that,
and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed them.


I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give
them longer life.  To the point, it’s not realistic to recycle these items
from the US to other place because they were ‘built to fail’.

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Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Dave Taht]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
> > <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, they
> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is
> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, the
> >> entire network collapses.
> >>
> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so it's
> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and louder if
> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduces the
> >> available airtime.
> >>
> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 100 APs
> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendees
> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be re-used
> >> more readily.
> >
> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)
>
> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people commenting on
> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't get good
> monitoring in place. No cake yet.
>
> I think this is what you mean
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0


A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that
you do not need the latest
technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the
late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured,
the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers
like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and
reflashed.

One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+
ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled,
especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image
for em, reflashed and redistributed them.

The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last
decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over
10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power
supply!


> > Did you get any good stats?
> >
> > Run cake anywhere?
> >>
> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with wifi
> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest possible
> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
> >>
> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your
> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to your
> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and airtime
> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's
> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber for the
> >> uplink is much better.
> >>
> >> David Lang
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   On Wed, 15 Mar
> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
> >>
> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge
> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks.  MOAR power to try to
> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into
> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.
> >>>
> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output
> >>> turned down to minimum.    Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away
> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
> >>>
> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model,
> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires
> >>> infrastructure cabling.  1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and
> >>> accounts for most access complaints.
> >>>
> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID
> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and
> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas.
> >>>
> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem
> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is
> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are
> >>> top sellers and top performers today.
> >>>
> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of
> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network.  I have
> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works
> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm
> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n
> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.   This model,
> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7
> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by
> >>> consumers setup.
> >>>
> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in
> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
> >>>
> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure
> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and
> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by
> >>> stakeholders of those networks.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very
> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to
> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
> >>>> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
> >>>>
> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates
> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't
> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog
> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block
> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
> >>>> systems, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and
> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add
> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)
> >>>>
> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
> >>>> engineering resources assigned.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob
> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
> >>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has
> >>>>>> to halt.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
> >>>>> room.
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >> Bloat mailing list
> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Rpm mailing list
> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
> >
> >
> >
> >



-- 
Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[David Lang]

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On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, they
>> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is
>> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, the
>> entire network collapses.
>>
>> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so it's
>> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and louder if
>> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduces the
>> available airtime.
>>
>> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 100 APs
>> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendees
>> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be re-used
>> more readily.
>
> How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
> of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
> repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)

no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people commenting on 
how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't get good 
monitoring in place. No cake yet.

I think this is what you mean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXvGbEYeWp0

> Did you get any good stats?
>
> Run cake anywhere?
>>
>> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with wifi
>> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest possible
>> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
>>
>> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your
>> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to your
>> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and airtime
>> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's
>> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber for the
>> uplink is much better.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Wed, 15 Mar
>> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
>>
>>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge
>>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks.  MOAR power to try to
>>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into
>>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.
>>>
>>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output
>>> turned down to minimum.    Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away
>>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
>>>
>>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model,
>>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires
>>> infrastructure cabling.  1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and
>>> accounts for most access complaints.
>>>
>>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID
>>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and
>>> likely fixed position ) antennas.
>>>
>>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem
>>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is
>>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are
>>> top sellers and top performers today.
>>>
>>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of
>>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network.  I have
>>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works
>>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm
>>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n
>>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.   This model,
>>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7
>>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by
>>> consumers setup.
>>>
>>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
>>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in
>>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
>>>
>>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure
>>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and
>>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by
>>> stakeholders of those networks.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very
>>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to
>>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
>>>> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
>>>>
>>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates
>>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
>>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't
>>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog
>>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block
>>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
>>>> systems, etc.
>>>>
>>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and
>>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
>>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
>>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add
>>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)
>>>>
>>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
>>>> engineering resources assigned.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
>>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has
>>>>>> to halt.
>>>>>
>>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
>>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
>>>>> room.
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rpm mailing list
>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>
>
>
>

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Dave Taht]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm
<rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, they
> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is
> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with users, the
> entire network collapses.
>
> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments, so it's
> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and louder if
> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and reduces the
> available airtime.
>
> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed over 100 APs
> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the attendees
> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could be re-used
> more readily.

How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as
of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you
repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)

Did you get any good stats?

Run cake anywhere?
>
> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but with wifi
> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewest possible
> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.
>
> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for your
> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection to your
> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter and airtime
> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it's
> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). Wire/fiber for the
> uplink is much better.
>
> David Lang
>
>
>
>   On Wed, 15 Mar
> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
>
> > Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge
> > part of the current problems with WiFi networks.  MOAR power to try to
> > overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds into
> > the next home/suite/apartment etc.
> >
> > In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output
> > turned down to minimum.    Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50ft away
> > (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
> >
> > One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' model,
> > ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requires
> > infrastructure cabling.  1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure today and
> > accounts for most access complaints.
> >
> > Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID
> > closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and
> > likely fixed position ) antennas.
> >
> > regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off prem
> > and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home is
> > already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that are
> > top sellers and top performers today.
> >
> > IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of
> > powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network.  I have
> > some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model works
> > fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'm
> > seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11n
> > radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.   This model,
> > with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or WiFi7
> > per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployable by
> > consumers setup.
> >
> > WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and
> > co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in
> > early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).
> >
> > IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructure
> > to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security and
> > liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated by
> > stakeholders of those networks.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32 AM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very
> >> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to
> >> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
> >> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
> >>
> >> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates
> >> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
> >> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't
> >> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog
> >> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block
> >> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
> >> systems, etc.
> >>
> >> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and
> >> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
> >> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
> >> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion? Add
> >> a zero (or multiple by 10)
> >>
> >> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
> >> engineering resources assigned.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
> >>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has
> >>>> to halt.
> >>>
> >>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
> >>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
> >>> room.
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> _______________________________________________
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> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm



-- 
Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

> I have sometimes thought that LiFi (https://lifi.co/) would suddenly
> come out of the woodwork,
> and we would be networking over that through the household.

I think the wishful thinking is "coming from woodwork" vs coming from 
the current and near future state of engineering. Engineering comes from 
humans solving problems who typically get paid to do so.

FiWi would leverage SFP tech. The Fi side of FiWi comes from mass NRE 
investments into the data center networks. The Wi side from mass 
investment into billions of mobile phones. Leveraging WiFi & SFP parts 
is critical to success as semiconductors are a by-the-pound business. I 
think a 1X25G VCSEL SFP, which is tolerant to dust over MMF, has a 
retail price of $40 today.  The sweet spot for DC SFP today is driven by 
1x100Gb/s serdes and I suspect angel investors are trying to improve the 
power significantly of the attached lasers. It's been said that one 
order of improvement in lowering laser power gives multiple orders of 
laser MTBF improvements. So lasers, SERDES & CMOS radios are not static 
and will constantly improve year to year per thousands of engineers 
working on them today, tomorrow & on.

The important parts of FiWi have to be pluggable - just like a light 
bulb is. The socket and wiring last (a la the fiber and antennas) - we 
just swap a bulb if it burns out, if we want a different color, if we 
want a higher foot candle rating, etc. This allows engineering cadences 
to match market cadences and pays staffs. Most engineers don't like to 
wait decades between releases so-to-speak and don't like feast & famine 
lifestyles. Moore's law was and is about human cadences too.

I don't see any engineering NRE that LiFi could leverage. Sounds cool 
though.

Bob

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[dan]

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On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:53 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 10:49 AM rjmcmahon via Rpm
> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > Agreed, AQM is like an emergency brake. Go ahead and keep it but hope to
> > never need to use it.
>
> Tee-hee, flow queuing is like having a 1024 lanes that can be used for
> everything from pedestrians, to bicycles, to trucks and trains. I
> would settle for FQ everywhere over AQM.
>
> This has been a very fun conversation and I am struggling to keep up.
>
> I have sometimes thought that LiFi (https://lifi.co/) would suddenly
> come out of the woodwork,
> and we would be networking over that through the household.
>
> I'd rather say it's a traffic cop and has value in essentially any
network.  Keeping the costs down on end user hardware is fundamental, and
those devices will behave however they want (ie badly).  AQM is the
'roundabout' that keeps things flowing but each thing at an appropriate
rate so it works well.  There will *never be infinite bandwidth or even
enough that no services saturate it.   Even a very small town with everyone
on a 1G turns into 20Tb of necessary capacity to avoid the usefulness of
AQM.  When likely 20Gb is sufficient.

There has to be something that addresses the car going 180MPH on the
freeway.  That car requires everyone else to pull off the road to avoid
disaster in the same way that data chews up a fifo buffer and wrecks the
rest.  AQM is the solution now, and more evolved AQM is most likely the
answer for many many years to come.

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Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Dave Taht]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 10:49 AM rjmcmahon via Rpm
<rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Agreed, AQM is like an emergency brake. Go ahead and keep it but hope to
> never need to use it.

Tee-hee, flow queuing is like having a 1024 lanes that can be used for
everything from pedestrians, to bicycles, to trucks and trains. I
would settle for FQ everywhere over AQM.

This has been a very fun conversation and I am struggling to keep up.

I have sometimes thought that LiFi (https://lifi.co/) would suddenly
come out of the woodwork,
and we would be networking over that through the household.


>
> Bob
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > I like your design sketch and the ideas behind it.
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 15, 2023, at 18:32, rjmcmahon via Bloat
> >> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very
> >> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded
> >> to a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by
> >> installers per those chanspecs.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
> >
> >       Maybe design this to be dual band from the start to avoid the up/down
> > "tdm" approach we currently use? Better yet go full duplex, which
> > might be an option if we get enough radios that not much
> > beamforming/MIMO is necessary? I obviously lack deep enough
> > understanf=dingwhether this makes any sense or is just buzzword bingo
> > from my side :)
> >
> >
> >>
> >> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY rates
> >> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
> >> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless
> >> isn't high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in
> >> a dog park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from
> >> block to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
> >> systems, etc.
> >>
> >> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that
> >> and leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the
> >> RRH too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better
> >> than AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades.
> >> Congestion? Add a zero (or multiple by 10)
> >
> >       I am weary of this kind of trust in continuous exponential growth...
> > at one point we reach a limit and will need to figure out how to deal
> > with congestion again, so why drop this capability on the way? The
> > nice thing about AQMs is if there is no queue build up these basically
> > do nothing... (might need some design changes to optimize an AQM to be
> > as cheap as possible for the uncontended case)...
> >
> >> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
> >> engineering resources assigned.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon
> >>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has
> >>>> to halt.
> >>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
> >>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next
> >>> room.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bloat mailing list
> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm



-- 
Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC