From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AE383B29E for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2023 12:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-26f4bc74131so1747848a91.1 for ; Tue, 05 Sep 2023 09:15:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693930530; x=1694535330; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=o1hWLpUN4sedQl7CyxFiL1SUnP0iJXj5e4lH3Tr4Q+g=; b=KkQVaTm/78YEzXANXlmomGB5PBazbNoW72yyTrQXiQzo04JqYOuZwt3JsT+ls0Yy8e gQgS8WsiBRO0qQx0Lm772jcntQL++pBvV2wFuQgUJJfWm6sxFFOursyw35hA+Cs4GdtH PT34EjuDGu9+Y/vpbuKjSe5WkV9XusXPUPQOgi7JxDv2FZDZv2pplLCQGAoewYDUYh8p 7l8DFL9khf6ZMIlV898eG3kPmny02Af+J9re22hFRmFM5m/lPHLPjmXYMZJXXYO31YP+ dx8zQXYjvx8rVh0I779fH5bdznW5nUYGGly/ScRHyjCtypM8gQczRw6uUQhJR98oQRer E5Sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693930530; x=1694535330; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=o1hWLpUN4sedQl7CyxFiL1SUnP0iJXj5e4lH3Tr4Q+g=; b=DzAdvud48N5IgKh2vNp6C0VoYmCvoI+abej4PvOmO53BS4RWunXZJJBC3c01SHPEWO nFN49qxQZ9e9z6mAm8ZOQXk2x+TDjc8aRKNUkrnLwSZifvquhb9aDKDQasFtAxSpnAP7 s9Ztqd5D+pscqUxv9gDMJGyJn/1qZ+oE3rHhZWpOFEnYEJCn9lJ0OE9J1JLUeI1ZLeSE 9iFbe+ORdOfYDRjldn+SdQLzGYpIb2ENyK8G67DJDBPW/KXiJcaeYPdqzaTNoRCsg8dK tifHvRYknfxboOXIcMEPhl4D3/+JsIgkHibRqO9wmse8FcI1Gvl3LP0NHO2rVTp+PGNH eqtg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxUs9KCoFvnMzOIhZI0bE0xqdMCkwE3yKZId6RupRIKu30qbXM0 bcTnmnfZKyFQPJD+tJk6wEMaohdnugvM8aCRJuQHYmPn X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFIE41Yq+GK1GiFgFV3Z3Ia2INPKEh4stkU6D8IHz7A04xjUum5QoXaZ7/lR+8TA8poGj40t2ub6famfi18YLg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:6c66:b0:268:3ca4:6152 with SMTP id x93-20020a17090a6c6600b002683ca46152mr17509230pjj.15.1693930527000; Tue, 05 Sep 2023 09:15:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2023 09:15:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000560e5a06049eef03" Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2023 16:15:31 -0000 --000000000000560e5a06049eef03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder what oleg thinks the starlink repairability index is? On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink = < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers they give > for Internet access, which are built for that: > https://www.orange.com/en/commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environme= nt > > France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know > better what are you buying: > https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite > > Then, there is the one from iFixit: > > https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different= -than-the-french-repair-index > > Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals > all around the world. > > Regards, > > David > > > Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400 > > From: dan > > To: Dave Taht > > Cc: Rpm , libreqos > > , Bruce Perens = , > > Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat > > , David Lang > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi > > Message-ID: > > < > CAA_JP8W4B6ixcYjijJ8FyA+PAXpLTLjvvKH5-dGjB-UaanC3dQ@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > > > > On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52=E2=80=AFPM David Lang wro= te: > >> > >> > >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote: > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Rpm > >> > >> > wrote: > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference > >> center, they > >> > >> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when t= he > >> place is > >> > >> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with > >> users, the > >> > >> >> entire network collapses. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse > environments, > >> so it's > >> > >> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (an= d > >> louder if > >> > >> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and > >> reduces the > >> > >> >> available airtime. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed > over > >> 100 APs > >> > >> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the > >> attendees > >> > >> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels coul= d > be > >> re-used > >> > >> >> more readily. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as > >> > >> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you > >> > >> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?) > >> > >> > >> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people > >> commenting on > >> > >> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn'= t > >> get good > >> > >> monitoring in place. No cake yet. > >> > >> > >> I think this is what you mean > >> > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUXvGbEYeWp0 > >> > >> > >> > >> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that > >> you do not need the latest > >> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the > >> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured, > >> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers > >> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and > >> reflashed. > >> > >> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+ > >> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled, > >> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image > >> for em, reflashed and redistributed them. > >> > >> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last > >> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over > >> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power > >> supply! > >> > >> > >> > Did you get any good stats? > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Run cake anywhere? > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but > >> with wifi > >> > >> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the > fewest > >> possible > >> > >> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel fo= r > >> your > >> > >> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connectio= n > to > >> your > >> > >> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter > and > >> airtime > >> > >> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that > it's > >> > >> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). > >> Wire/fiber for the > >> > >> >> uplink is much better. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> David Lang > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> On Wed, 15 Mar > >> > >> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house > is a > >> huge > >> > >> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to tr= y > to > >> > >> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power blee= ds > >> into > >> > >> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with > >> >>> output > >> > >> >>> turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels > 50ft > >> away > >> > >> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bul= b' > >> model, > >> > >> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it > >> >>> requires > >> > >> >>> infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure > >> today and > >> > >> >>> accounts for most access complaints. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access > SSID > >> > >> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with > better > >> (and > >> > >> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall > off > >> prem > >> > >> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a > home > >> is > >> > >> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems > that > >> are > >> > >> >>> top sellers and top performers today. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died > out > >> of > >> > >> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline > network. I > >> have > >> > >> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model > works > >> > >> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so > I'm > >> > >> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have > 802.11n > >> > >> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. Th= is > >> model, > >> > >> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 = or > >> WiFi7 > >> > >> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and > deployable > >> by > >> > >> >>> consumers setup. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and > >> > >> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that= 's > >> >>> in > >> > >> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of > >> unfrastructure > >> > >> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, > security > >> and > >> > >> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolat= ed > >> >>> by > >> > >> >>> stakeholders of those networks. > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon > > >> wrote: > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and > >> >>>> very > >> > >> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color > coded > >> to > >> > >> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by > installers > >> > >> >>>> per those chanspecs. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY > >> >>>> rates > >> > >> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease th= e > >> > >> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless > >> isn't > >> > >> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in = a > >> >>>> dog > >> > >> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from > >> >>>> block > >> > >> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation > >> > >> >>>> systems, etc. > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve th= at > >> and > >> > >> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the > RRH > >> > >> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better > than > >> > >> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. > Congestion? > >> Add > >> > >> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10) > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero > >> > >> >>>> engineering resources assigned. > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>>> Bob > >> > >> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon > >> > >> >>>>> wrote: > >> > >> >>>>> > >> > >> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversatio= n > >> >>>>>> has > >> > >> >>>>>> to halt. > >> > >> >>>>> > >> > >> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden > >> > >> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the ne= xt > >> > >> >>>>> room. > >> > >> >>>> > >> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >> Bloat mailing list > >> > >> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> >> Rpm mailing list > >> > >> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >> > > > > Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especiall= y > > poorly made. Ie, engineered for our disposable market. Lots of netgea= r > > products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if > that, > > and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed > them. > > > > > > I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give > > them longer life. To the point, it=E2=80=99s not realistic to recycle = these > items > > from the US to other place because they were =E2=80=98built to fail=E2= =80=99. > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > < > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230315/5ca= 4404e/attachment.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 24, Issue 37 > > **************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --000000000000560e5a06049eef03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I wonder what oleg thinks the starlink repairability index= is?

On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:46=E2=80=AFAM David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starl= ink <starlink@lists.bu= fferbloat.net> wrote:
ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers th= ey give
for Internet access, which are built for that:
https://www.orange.com/en= /commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environment

France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know
better what are you buying:
https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite=

Then, there is the one from iFixit:
https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different= -than-the-french-repair-index

Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals
all around the world.

Regards,

David

> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400
> From: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>
> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> Cc: Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, libreqos
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Bruce P= erens <bruce@peren= s.com>,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferblo= at.net>,=C2=A0 bloat
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, David Lang &l= t;david@lang.hm><= br> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat]=C2=A0 [LibreQoS] On FiWi
> Message-ID:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<CAA_JP8W4= B6ixcYjijJ8FyA+PAXpLTLjvvKH5-dGjB-UaanC3dQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>
> On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52=E2=80=AFPM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Rpm >>
>> > <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any c= onference
>> center, they
>>
>> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works w= ell when the
>> place is
>>
>> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills= up with
>> users, the
>>
>> >> entire network collapses.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse = environments,
>> so it's
>>
>> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through&quo= t; is to talk slower (and
>> louder if
>>
>> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other= users and
>> reduces the
>>
>> >> available airtime.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We = deployed over
>> 100 APs
>>
>> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so t= hat the
>> attendees
>>
>> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the cha= nnels could be
>> re-used
>>
>> >> more readily.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s t= here as
>>
>> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (c= an you
>>
>> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?)
>>
>>
>> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people=
>> commenting on
>>
>> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and d= idn't
>> get good
>>
>> monitoring in place. No cake yet.
>>
>>
>> I think this is what you mean
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUXvGbEYeWp0<= /a>
>>
>>
>>
>> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is tha= t
>> you do not need the latest
>> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the=
>> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactur= ed,
>> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers
>> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled = and
>> reflashed.
>>
>> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 60= 0+
>> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled, >> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder imag= e
>> for em, reflashed and redistributed them.
>>
>> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to l= ast
>> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for o= ver
>> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the powe= r
>> supply!
>>
>>
>> > Did you get any good stats?
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Run cake anywhere?
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells&#= 39; years ago, but
>> with wifi
>>
>> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area wi= th the fewest
>> possible
>>
>> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work.<= br> >>
>> >>
>>
>> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different = channel for
>> your
>>
>> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the= connection to
>> your
>>
>> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden t= ransmitter and
>> airtime
>>
>> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the up= link that it's
>>
>> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antenn= as).
>> Wire/fiber for the
>>
>> >> uplink is much better.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> David Lang
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, 15 Mar
>>
>> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 A= P in a house is a
>> huge
>>
>> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks.=C2= =A0 MOAR power to try to
>>
>> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so mo= re power bleeds
>> into
>>
>> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an A= P per room with
>> >>> output
>>
>> >>> turned down to minimum.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Doing this we ca= n reused 5Ghz channels 50ft
>> away
>>
>> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish th= is 'light bulb'
>> model,
>>
>> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, i= s that it
>> >>> requires
>>
>> >>> infrastructure cabling.=C2=A0 1 RRH AP in a house is = already a failure
>> today and
>>
>> >>> accounts for most access complaints.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, gettin= g the access SSID
>>
>> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate ch= annel with better
>> (and
>>
>> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of mo= ving firewall off
>> prem
>>
>> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, si= ngle AP in a home
>> is
>>
>> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the m= esh systems that
>> are
>>
>> >>> top sellers and top performers today.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame = and then died out
>> of
>>
>> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powe= rline network.=C2=A0 I
>> have
>>
>> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and= the model works
>>
>> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolv= ed slowly so I'm
>>
>> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik un= its have 802.11n
>>
>> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern= speeds.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This
>> model,
>>
>> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speed= s, and WiFi6 or
>> WiFi7
>>
>> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practica= l and deployable
>> by
>>
>> >>> consumers setup.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordin= ation and
>>
>> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple = APs, and that's
>> >>> in
>>
>> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). >>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amo= unts of
>> unfrastructure
>>
>> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re= -wired, security
>> and
>>
>> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being fi= rewall isolated
>> >>> by
>>
>> >>> stakeholders of those networks.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon &l= t;rjmcmahon@rj= mcmahon.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power = indoor (LPI) and
>> >>>> very
>>
>> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver = could be color coded
>> to
>>
>> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can b= e used by installers
>>
>> >>>> per those chanspecs. https= ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference= " The high-speed PHY
>> >>>> rates
>>
>> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally = 1/1, decrease the
>>
>> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The go= al with wireless
>> isn't
>>
>> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of = humans stuck in a
>> >>>> dog
>>
>> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's t= he ability to move from
>> >>>> block
>>
>> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewa= lks, sanitation
>>
>> >>>> systems, etc.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rate= s can achieve that
>> and
>>
>> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time a= nd shut down the RRH
>>
>> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magn= itude is better than
>>
>> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for d= ecades. Congestion?
>> Add
>>
>> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10)
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year p= roject with zero
>>
>> >>>> engineering resources assigned.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>>> Bob
>>
>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Rober= t McMahon
>>
>> >>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every othe= r possible conversation
>> >>>>>> has
>>
>> >>>>>> to halt.
>>
>> >>>>>
>>
>> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still= ignores the hidden
>>
>> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a simila= r network in the next
>>
>> >>>>> room.
>>
>> >>>>
>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> >> Bloat mailing list
>>
>> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo= /bloat
>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>>
>> >> Rpm mailing list
>>
>> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>
>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/r= pm
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglaten= cy.com/
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>
>
> Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especial= ly
> poorly made.=C2=A0 Ie, engineered for our disposable market.=C2=A0 Lot= s of netgear
> products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if t= hat,
> and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed = them.
>
>
> I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to giv= e
> them longer life.=C2=A0 To the point, it=E2=80=99s not realistic to re= cycle these items
> from the US to other place because they were =E2=80=98built to fail=E2= =80=99.
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Dave T=C3=A4ht = CSO, LibreQos
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