From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5EF73CB41; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:28:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id ca18e2360f4ac-7b6fe5d67d4so46507039f.3; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:28:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702679287; x=1703284087; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=7MryBDgXD6cFS1FlSIl+wDNDbDaBZ08vBWZhoXOfO/I=; b=lfoj1vJdUD40MMKmKOFAZ4D2BEy0TTs/UtzyRp6Sx2SZMoHAOVIGHgcUP4KCHvYslI 7JfZPFY3D39FoZNjgaae/plSyJVP6mzNNEf3s57GqxhdfZEuNIhykaMcglHy2uPKrDS4 d7gr5dmuyKYsjRtxseH+2trYMeQd5AwDRCr8kWMZGPmjqulr9u7dJOK/Y+GB1BAXn6LM cvnnxGBYfIoJEGSAFRq7zR6jC5mrgLCKIa4iapQmllhh2f58e/Vza6s0Dtbj9bqB7W+H SY1IQ0SdSyea2Z04jPsjhErQSXRvLct4zK+T7YQw5uWgrIA3urYHTyg1ZOx2WZ0T7H/X SeJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702679287; x=1703284087; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7MryBDgXD6cFS1FlSIl+wDNDbDaBZ08vBWZhoXOfO/I=; b=TeO0C64ButY7Dj4vd9wmiUEX4gme3pAKPHyJoyBsS4zeY1A11dUtMEsXhWK6ABjT9l PMzCi1GR5x9C1DSXFCbfFdFnUoDO46G/kEx7651uDIr7MTY76IteqXCciaE+B/fZjKMO HpBoM1RXfrTMxoRnFPhEaO0zWKkLeev7uQRGBP54cuoAzsByBmSxo8wwYp5YIS+MZ3g/ KxfJjfULgpUeNO3/rbQ2E21nCGxiCD3YvvzcaeGq+x+ncNGkvx6vMJQmRlOYjCwCJetF Mr3QoASPzwzLqPAQWKpyuxMDaZQ24YUCmj8qOIqnRzfh7aI0b2hbBjJI6D28BDWK+8Af MUXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwIb2+adw/FShaVpOt5Fn+VNIPfF3tbhF/IRFIdxPQcwq5H7VLF YcsFcmx6fSVcGpp86+Ug+rooMarjWQ3+jNa39TpG5mM4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEid1WWgK52UsqxbDZ82gqE+UZxQW/54O+QtkZsQDV17joZiNvrsHEPPo/YTtYicAjgZqT2XXw8iJws1FTRvOw= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d7c5:0:b0:35f:75d3:5481 with SMTP id g5-20020a92d7c5000000b0035f75d35481mr5367118ilq.63.1702679286977; Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:28:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <55037f9a-bc2c-4bbb-a4bb-47ad30f16190@rjmcmahon.com> <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:26:44 -0800 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: rjmcmahon , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_aspect?= =?UTF-8?Q?s_heard_this_time=21?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 22:28:08 -0000 This is principally a male dominated list, and I in general assume that the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews heavily male also. It is a very good set of questions to ask about how the internet should be structured to best meet the needs of both sexes, and how that has changed over time, and may change in the future! I hesitate to even make one overbroad conclusion! Permanent connectivity and messaging seems more important to women than men, and a phone more important than fiber. Security (tracking and/or protecting kids), also. It is something I would rather research than draw premature conclusions from. https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dhow+do+men+and+women+use+the+internet+dif= ferently On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Starlink wrote: > > why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? > > I've used it personally. > > Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that women h= ave any > particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth possi= ble. > > David Lang > > On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > > > Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. They = are > > using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of the > > addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be. S= o > > gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't work= over > > LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance learn= ing. > > > > https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patien= ts-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ > > > > As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should remain = in > > place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealth a= ccess > > and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a growi= ng > > share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health needs= . > > > > While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume healt= hcare > > services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to wome= n. > > > > Bob > >> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet > >> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to do > >> with shipping bits around? > >> > >> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to get > >> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every > >> house. > >> > >> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem were > >> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agencies > >> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? or > >> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses for > >> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the larger > >> population areas? > >> > >> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past > >> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today. > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > >> > >>> Hi All, > >>> > >>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electricity > >>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health and > >>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to follow. > >>> > >>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm > >>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We probab= ly > >>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best work = for > >>> our country and to be an example to the world. > >>> > >>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill =E2= =80=93 no > >>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford pr= oper > >>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth. During= the > >>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a sampling o= f > >>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 had > >>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, wer= e > >>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult to see= how they > >>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their feet, a= nd doing all > >>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 hauling = the water, > >>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the shearin= g, > >>> the plowing and the picking. > >>> > >>> Because there was no electricity. > >>> > >>> Bob > >>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Frantisek, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of satco= m > >>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to over= come > >>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of digital > >>>>>> divide - > >>>>> > >>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the goa= l to > >>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially > >>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at specifical= ly > >>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is not > >>>>> necessarily location but financial means). > >>>> > >>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to make = a > >>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company becaus= e > >>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to servic= e > >>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is litera= lly > >>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, it = will > >>>>>> be like 10 years down the road. > >>>>> > >>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a > >>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme locati= ons, > >>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt. Whit= ney). > >>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is infrastructure = that > >>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However give= n > >>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim pe= riod. > >>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that from a > >>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually discussi= on > >>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by starlink= was > >>>>> mostly redacted. > >>>> > >>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between > >>>> houses is 'too far'? > >>>> > >>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities with > >>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there are > >>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable enoug= h. > >>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the co= st > >>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the majority o= f > >>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), but > >>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once you g= et > >>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or > >>>> village becomes a major undertaking. > >>>> > >>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an > >>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is less > >>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol. > >>>> > >>>> David Lang > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Nnagain mailing list > >>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > >>> > >_______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos