From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi1-x22f.google.com (mail-oi1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7068F3B29D; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 19:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3b9e2a014e8so1571279b6e.2; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:26:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702772763; x=1703377563; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=P1wRNuKF5z2Rq/fOB6ah1Pe9LMx7thDrbTSf7yAyndY=; b=Ryx4xYOIF5EwqFk+nmjs9S/1J9NkH0VTWdER5eMBSKEbxg/9++Gw07PfkW56SkZ2X0 DTdgqHJz6PLSV5xGrrMvHxhxQ+rjBhQ62OSz5UdaxsNjO20ROjTm2Y0iTSCBRw3EAqLN AVSiQcLzETOIcWWz60rUQ5g3TuX/+sBQCdxqd+gLWPPE5qm/nsk9bVNSBeFV190otxeS /5fizBcvMHyTerpv8RDoNR5+B9MgzQT6doMC0qpR6JkKpfuiV9Ku1JZOM6WMAjqYW8qB 4tX+soHtf0TETqZro8QloFXllw1JN3bzF4iAVUi5f7dpICN5YcW/YgaZAAlkggwRIzSy yHGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702772763; x=1703377563; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=P1wRNuKF5z2Rq/fOB6ah1Pe9LMx7thDrbTSf7yAyndY=; b=M6jw3FTSYy1aA8EYXMm9jGrB/xBP1N0/3LTln6udV4vQsw0rjbbQcw715j/63xvjaP b/quaRBCm0PGEp0EAvyjXvvpCbvxP4nmXt2l+gCkGhOuitQL7V4swWxKbYKIxXrhj55i FsodbHrp0CdnVQNt1cz7iRvQvWoS4e27HV01/OCLzXo2SqZv20ObnLAk4t3l+W9/mkgT 4tsfFXpuiRBDbNWhnLhPm8GeiXAD7pcgVYvI/V2kfenAMVnQtj7NvBnsJjcL76oaPPgw bqpUwlFlo65rBQwjch+ny+IriMD9uD6CgJuueEVmQBbwb1iUJ4h9MZhXerZc78Kqwi+G lrYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwbTrODxTY7biI2l8hBN1qbHCLpeI1MumAcQMRselaJPUwhyhmt HfFW06spt6Vr2EAPqtN+Wr36ii/1uQ5k3D+d9ZWygtOI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH0yk9haFBATbj5OYpzvL8wEoglW9PumY0JZAovvajipIVxgIlIQB5pOOrVDvXdsgDkPtcNniHGH/g9csuZtlk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:118c:b0:3b9:d5ae:5d53 with SMTP id j12-20020a056808118c00b003b9d5ae5d53mr17152724oil.41.1702772763020; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:26:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <02cc2879-ef99-4388-bc1e-335a4aaff6aa@gmail.com> <18A40E71-F636-41A9-A8A7-0F4F69E3C99F@gmx.de> <650s1558-6310-063q-s5q2-o782rnnoss29@ynat.uz> <471154o6-no08-67or-p1o2-np919ro26osp@ynat.uz> <05ef1cd50d0e0a681b2cd38b1bdeb0a9@rjmcmahon.com> <4p61qp8r-p1p1-r83r-n283-315548o163po@ynat.uz> <3b1dac448b6590029679a7c22516c40c@rjmcmahon.com> <04b32733-b413-481a-94ea-da6dadbd0802@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <04b32733-b413-481a-94ea-da6dadbd0802@rjmcmahon.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 16:25:41 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= Cc: Robert McMahon , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2023 00:26:04 -0000 I tried gently to shut down the vitriol on this thread yesterday. In general I prefer we talk about ideas, and not people. Ideally I would like this to be a place where people can constructively disagree, and I have encouraged since the start to outreach to people (male or female) that might be interested in discussing technical aspects of network neutrality. Fights over who gets funded for what are barely within scope, and I am hesitant to state my opinions for fear of fanning flames further. I think Starlink is an excellent service, and is doing a great job of covering the more rural parts of America and the world, and can continue to do so, without subsidy, A subsidy of some kind might lead to lower prices, more launches, or more ground stations, or investment into better software. (it is unclear what they RDOF funds were for? I think originally the costs were priced to reduce the cost of the terminal itself for a shorter ROI) It is unlikely 1B would end up being tossed into a cash fire and burned for merriment. The fact that Starlink can deploy rapidly, anywhere, without planning, or digging up roads is a huge boon. The value for emergency services alone is nearly incalculable. The difficulties with comparing it to a conventional networking service are legion, particularly given the flawed speedtest based regimes - which have very little bearing on the things users actually use the internet for in the first place. The MTTR and MTBF of starlink are really low (except in the case of a kessler event!) compared to any terrestrial service. Having to not compete based on arbitrary rules laid down by the subsiders but merely on genuine quality of experience metrics would be kind of freeing. The high cost of the monthly service is, in my mind, really trivial compared to the opex of running a fiber or wireless network out to the boonies. I have no idea to what extent RDOF applications have thought through the long term costs of over-extended networks or the degree to which urban is expected to subsidize rural? I have yet to see anyone talking about rural opex throughout most of the BEAD debate in the first place, and perhaps if rational estimates of those appeared debates would be more fruitful. I think it is a political mistake to make it any harder for rural america to get better internet, something that rural folk are already quite aware of after years of broken promises for better internet. But again, starlink can be had at best buy and is in a position to serve many millions more people far faster than fiber be laid. I guess there are multiple other comments I could try to respond to but... On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 2:29=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nnagain wrote: > > Elon Musk can afford to take starlink to markey without the government su= bsidies. It's past time to stop subsidizing the richest person on the plane= t. > > Bob > On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:44 PM, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain wrote: >> >> When someone is speaking with a C-suit of the 25Gbps ISP that still beli= eves "in over-provisioning. QoS/QoE is for those ISPs which have less bandw= idth than they need" (paraphrasing) - that particular someone knows that th= ere is still SO much work in front of us. >> >> *trying to bring this thread back on track :-) >> >> So this thread started with FCC denial to Starlink. Those 640k locations= will not be served in the coming years (1-5 years, for that particular amo= unt of $). Their only hope was to get served by Starlink. If FCC will decid= e to give those money to someone else, it's total farce. Starlink, in this = particular case, was their only hope. Do you really think that you will see= WISPs popping up at those locations? Do you see FISPs doing it? Or anyone = with DOCSIS? No way. >> >> This decision was pure political BS - a revenge against Musk. And those = people living at these locations in question are the ones that will loose t= he most in the crossfire. It's sad. No matter how much mental gymnastics yo= u want to apply here in order to legitimise this post-facto. No internet? S= tarlink would bring at least some internet connectivity to them - I, those = people or anyone without a pure political bias in this case, should not giv= e a flying F that "THiS iS nOt A rEaL 1gbps/500mbps bRoADband" or whatever.= They want and need at least some internet connectivity. The only way to de= liver it to them in a reasonable timeframe is Starlink. >> >> All the best, >> >> Frank >> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >> >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >> >> Skype: casioa5302ca >> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 7:48=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon via Nnagain wrote: >>> >>> >>> And the excuse for not hiring women in the Criminal Division was they h= ave to deal with all these tough types, and women aren't up to that. And I = was amazed. I said, have you seen the lawyers at legal aid who are represen= ting these tough types? They're all women. >>> >>> People ask me sometimes, when =E2=80=94 when do you think it will it be= enough? When will there be enough women on the court? And my answer is whe= n there are nine. RBG >>> >>> Bob >>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 9:30 AM, rjmcmahon via Nnagain wrote: >>>> >>>> The president who ran Harvey Mudd College had to fix their computer >>>> science problem of a 90% to 10% male to female ratio. She was asked, >>>> "What's the goal?" She responded, "It should reflect to population so >>>> 50/50." The others said, "Be realistic." >>>> >>>> She was and she got it to 50/50 where it should be in every technology >>>> group.Though we have more improvements to be done. >>>> >>>> https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-= in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/ >>>> >>>> There is now way to fix a problem without getting passed the denial >>>> phase. This list population, and the LEO worshiping of Musk displayed >>>> here by its constituents, are very much white male things. Not noticin= g >>>> this & staying silent on this shows a lack of integrity by the group. = My >>>> judgment. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> to be very clear, I am in no way saying that anyone's (let alone >>>>> saying women's) views are not desired. I think a diversity of views = if >>>>> extremely valuable. >>>>> >>>>> I just get my back up when people say things like 'there need to mor= e >>>>> X in charge' (for any value of X that refers to a characteristic tha= t >>>>> someone is born with) >>>>> >>>>> David Lang >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Dave Taht wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is principally a male dominated list, and I in general assume >>>>>> that the public debate over fiber, bandwidth, etc, etc skews heavil= y >>>>>> male also. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is a very good set of questions to ask about how the internet >>>>>> should be structured to best meet the needs of both sexes, and how >>>>>> that has changed over time, and may change in the future! I hesitat= e >>>>>> to even make one overbroad conclusion! Permanent connectivity and >>>>>> messaging seems more important to women than men, and a phone more >>>>>> important than fiber. Security (tracking and/or protecting kids), >>>>>> also. It is something I would rather research than draw premature >>>>>> conclusions from. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dhow+do+men+and+women+use+the+inte= rnet+differently >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 1:42=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Starlink >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've used it personally. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that >>>>>>> women have any >>>>>>> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealt= h >>>>>>> possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. >>>>>>>> They are >>>>>>>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may >>>>>>>> be. So >>>>>>>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn'= t >>>>>>>> work over >>>>>>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance >>>>>>>> learning. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-= patients-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should >>>>>>>> remain in >>>>>>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back >>>>>>>> telehealth access >>>>>>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a >>>>>>>> growing >>>>>>>> share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health= needs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume >>>>>>>> healthcare >>>>>>>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive t= o >>>>>>>> women. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet >>>>>>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have t= o >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> with shipping bits around? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way = to >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to ever= y >>>>>>>>> house. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem >>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public >>>>>>>>> agencies >>>>>>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants= ? >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the >>>>>>>>> larger >>>>>>>>> population areas? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the pas= t >>>>>>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it= for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> electricity >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate.= Tele-health >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so= much to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> follow. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ = showed up. I'm >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to = capable. We >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to= do our best >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> work for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> our country and to be an example to the world. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even = if she was ill >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> =E2=80=93 no >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too= poor to afford >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> proper >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in = childbirth. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> During the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to ex= amine a >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sampling of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of = 275 women, 158 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecolog= ists reported, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it i= s difficult to see how >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standin= g on their feet, and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> doing all >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done = =E2=80=93 hauling the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> water, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helpin= g with the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> shearing, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the plowing and the picking. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Because there was no electricity. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlin= k wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik vi= a Nnagain >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like th= e advantages of >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> satcom >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 1= 0 years time, to >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> overcome >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address= the issue of >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> digital >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> divide - >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enter= prise with the >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> goal to >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet acc= ess essentially >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an a= ttempt at >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> specifically >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an impo= rtant factor is >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise wit= h the goal to >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> make a >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismi= ss a company >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) = all exist to >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastruc= ture >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, w= here there is >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> literally >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And i= t will get there, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it will >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goa= l needs to be a >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the excepti= on of extreme >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> locations, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac= shelter on Mt. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Whitney). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, thi= s is >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure that >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once roll= ed-out. However >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> given >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-around= s for the interim >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> period. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qua= lify for that >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> from a >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documen= ts actually >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/= promised by >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> starlink was >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mostly redacted. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how lon= g a run between >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> houses is 'too far'? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopo= lies in cities >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and e= ven where there >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's n= ot profitable >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acre= s per house' the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> cost >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think thi= s is the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> majority of >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't = know for sure), >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the= US. And once >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> you get >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber = to every town or >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of= 700 people an >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermo= ntville MI >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> >>>> Nnagain mailing list >>>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nnagain mailing list >>> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Nnagain mailing list >> Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain > > _______________________________________________ > Nnagain mailing list > Nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain --=20 :( My old R&D campus is up for sale: https://tinyurl.com/yurtlab Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos