From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B71B33B2A4 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 10:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-273d10d3df3so3298059a91.3 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 07:13:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695046400; x=1695651200; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nq0crnvjhJf2hx1JasR9QTDIAFNOFzAVxeQ9x8QmQt0=; b=SS6702pobcYibsy+f/5BK69XovhI6P349aOU+sYOBMx+OAqZBTBQ/j989T4ax3I3Zq Zn0zi+AkQsn8ttCCHYr7SvTuoHG4aHvgVOiZKeCZA9Tn2zP2EtJu8TSH8UxbSkNSsote ZEqK7JwxsHwDLN1yDwgylOVFPGY48S/KyScfNAZyBy7nGg3CXMwYZVt9GtVn4AZlxbPV umZ1ldxfYY25XBBGn04NDIUPubPqWASaeo0wYDU4+SKSOuGmur4TLeLZXKv6uqM6HKJx HSFVEdKfx3zjmafUaRBl1VHUlp8YwbAGbzsj6bbtjDaKmd+Sd7M79vDM6ECKcj6UU3qm MA9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695046400; x=1695651200; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=nq0crnvjhJf2hx1JasR9QTDIAFNOFzAVxeQ9x8QmQt0=; b=MLNJdtT3SdEg/MzvJYRYUpKqORpO2U4zvigGScv+vPRtZY0tV/9XltgXyelxoz9mi9 rI+pVoprL1ge33lNZ0THeoArPeBSiaFAFqObi+JcdrP8nfN9HvsQVsOTkL62V7vekYYX x0bQOboM8pdNXEuipz5vOSVTFevHlAW376zwLCNGxjiKAVlTOlYnDhzI9REZKsJSME+r 3itgCsfzq59ngQxT9YalWchhSPEyuXvMKkzo1Kv9osI8iYkGUBEUzfVtkYR8psi++TSz YSsyZpqGYInzVOOxlC+mNF46x1Bws4eu1NI0kSVy6RZQOIDmFP0R0RLreZbCwvtmcn87 Je4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxr4eXZrhgFhI4tW5Jto/FFAvTMsN/lWTeyh7/2JslNRar5X2lx 33yasExVItURMwHpLVbi5KfBNWyYkBj5mm/DyZWDQ0NDrwI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGlQCRqpZyWnLhhHwiSdpnjcj3WAPH6jt2u6PMY9PA05RKkJKsxFQj+0Yq+QaxFabh7fTHscTY/W+PF7vE4kN0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:88b:b0:274:5e18:851c with SMTP id v11-20020a17090a088b00b002745e18851cmr6679407pjc.4.1695046399843; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 07:13:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8AED1E59-907D-4639-B4EE-B88DEF84A0ED@cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <8AED1E59-907D-4639-B4EE-B88DEF84A0ED@cable.comcast.com> From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 07:13:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Livingood, Jason" Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a63f50605a2bec6" Subject: Re: [Starlink] impressed with my starlink today X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 14:13:21 -0000 --0000000000008a63f50605a2bec6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 6:19=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason < Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > IMO I don=E2=80=99t think you can judge that by using Galene =E2=80=93 yo= u need to use the > large market-share platforms. > Only a few years ago, there were no large market share platforms. Given that multiple corps I work with now will not use zoom at all, others will only use msteams, others still fleeing from google, and in my world, p2p (via skype, telegram, matrix, signal), and group (matrix is trialing a stacked SFU based on the pion library), dominates in general I do not buy the "must test the mass market surveillance capitalism videoconferencing tool", concept... rather... one that takes 10 minutes to setup, control the source code to, and servers it runs on, as well as the statistics it collects. What is research today will be common one day, and I for one would welcome the end of metered, centralized, and surveilled videoconferencing. Stuff built around the pion library is currently best in class for what can be achieved over webrtc, in terms of latency. Zoom went the other way, preserving video quality, at the expense of interactivity. > Also, given the density issues facing LEO services, a single sample can= =E2=80=99t > be taken as particularly representative =E2=80=93 you=E2=80=99d need more= users across a > broader range of density/terrain types. > > I 110% agree, which is why I asked here, which has multiple researchers engaged in wider scale and long term studies. 2? (3?) weeks back I was seeing, about once every 5 minutes, a jump to a 70ms baseline latency, which I do not see in the past week=C2=B4s worth of data. I would also typi= cally see worse behavior on a downshift of available bandwidth. I can (and do) pick these out via a CDF plot over time but the data is noisy as heck. Given that I have no particularly good tools for measuring a zoom conference, I am kind of leveraging making a recording of a podcast, and counting glitches with a stopwatch. How far we have come s-s-s-since m-m-m-max headroom! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DcYdpOjletnc How far we have to go! > > > JL > > > > *From: *Starlink on behalf of > Dave Taht via Starlink > *Reply-To: *Dave Taht > *Date: *Friday, September 15, 2023 at 18:45 > *To: *Dave Taht via Starlink > *Subject: *[Starlink] impressed with my starlink today > > > > I just did a bunch of videoconferences all morning without many glitches. > (2 hours, only one download glitch, not recording so I do not know how go= od > the up was) Admittedly, I was > > using galene.org > > rather than zoom, but I did do a couple up and downloads while talking an= d > they seemed to work pretty well. > > > > I ran a few tests afterwards, to observe my overall bandwidth up was way > up, and tcp congestion controls pretty smoothly adapting to physical > changes in RTT and bandwidth for a change. I sat there and admired the > T+120 smoothnesss in this transition, in particular. > > > Anyone else seeing progress in long term behaviors? I think in part it wa= s > just galene doing better, or perhaps it was because my baseline bandwidth > stayed above galene=C2=B4s base. > > > > > > -- > > Oct 30: > https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --0000000000008a63f50605a2bec6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 6:19=E2=80=AF= AM Livingood, Jason <Jaso= n_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:

IMO I don=E2=80=99t t= hink you can judge that by using Galene =E2=80=93 you need to use the large= market-share platforms.

Only a few years ago, there were no large market share platform= s. Given that multiple corps I work with now will not use zoom at all, othe= rs will only use msteams, others still fleeing from google,
and i= n my world, p2p (via skype, telegram, matrix, signal), and group (matrix is= trialing a stacked SFU based on the pion library), dominates in general I = do not buy the "must test the mass market surveillance=C2=A0capitalism= videoconferencing tool", concept...=C2=A0 rather... one that takes 10= minutes to setup, control the source code to, and servers it runs on, as w= ell as the statistics it collects.=C2=A0

What is r= esearch today will be common one day, and I for one would welcome the end o= f metered, centralized, and surveilled=C2=A0videoconferencing. Stuff built = around the pion library is currently best in class for what can be achieved= over webrtc, in terms of latency. Zoom went the other way, preserving vide= o quality, at the expense of interactivity.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Also, given the density issues facing LEO services, a s= ingle sample can=E2=80=99t be taken as particularly representative =E2=80=93 you=E2=80=99d need more users across a broader range of density/= terrain types.


I 110% agree, which is why = I asked here, which has multiple researchers engaged in wider scale and lon= g term studies.=C2=A0 2? (3?) weeks back I was seeing, about once every 5 m= inutes, a jump to a 70ms baseline latency, which I do not see in the past w= eek=C2=B4s worth of data. I would also typically see worse behavior on a do= wnshift of available bandwidth. I can (and do) pick these out via a CDF plo= t over time but the data is noisy as heck.=C2=A0

G= iven that I have no particularly good tools for measuring a zoom conference= , I am kind of leveraging making a recording of a podcast, and counting gli= tches with a stopwatch.=C2=A0

How far we have come= s-s-s-since m-m-m-max headroom!=C2=A0


How far we have to go!
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

JL

=C2=A0<= /span>

From: = Starlink <starli= nk-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Dave Taht via Starlin= k <s= tarlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Reply-To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 15, 2023 at 18:45
To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: [Starlink] impressed with my starlink today

=C2=A0

I just did a bunch of videoconferences all morning w= ithout many glitches. (2 hours, only one download glitch, not recording so = I do not know how good the up was) Admittedly, I was

using galene.org rather than zoom, but I did do a couple up and downloads whi= le talking and they seemed to work pretty well.

=C2=A0

I ran a few tests afterwards, to observe my overall = bandwidth up was way up, and tcp congestion controls pretty smoothly adapti= ng to physical changes in RTT and bandwidth for a change. I sat there and a= dmired the T+120 smoothnesss in this transition, in particular.=C2=A0


Anyone else seeing progress in long term behaviors? = I think in part it was just galene doing better, or perhaps it was because = my baseline bandwidth stayed above galene=C2=B4s base.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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