From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D00163CB37 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-d8521c7172eso1673161276.1 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695323351; x=1695928151; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=JoMjHYEejA5Wyprvps9riFJJeXu8lxq+LGggLe+zOyk=; b=l8RXQuAhyH4PSP0bUElhMFLzbII/DPv4ARSb/N5MgdLNKILNHgnpEAbZ1EnVP2RBkc 77TuJLNsvKyGeFw5uwxvhJItFaWIm4Q13hmfr0VXyG1NbWZCSWOQmjs9SO/0OgoOBfO9 Zo0YXSGJzM9zMlks07FyVkdwyEkSRzgAFngeLNhjEVTuImzx7cDMFiQcy2TeTjdD5twL tN/Wnowczbjb0sM/ZZY7YiphZBEvvCEnlajI0AVvoxhUVTzO0CBUHzQmieVmucLV2coA jbvMiMr9avd6lUZwEMt1/lF1ao0W3y87UkA4c9A3BMVFwdeopbDMd701cz22Ow3N4eTI 1gEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695323351; x=1695928151; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=JoMjHYEejA5Wyprvps9riFJJeXu8lxq+LGggLe+zOyk=; b=TSdUW1K0wNI7Bhh4ICvg8m9ErqR5/c/o7fEJnKscAP+SHOne0DuHva5T98P5R5WzaP jekTR0y2AyHwhHpXnwlKcP3etqXSkx2qH1AQLN9vc1IoBeqOnPQGR1M2oBJHAoDh5U+D U2bscxP3ZyZeEHXQpmst7Lfx/php/VaN3pT++dzkvBHJOr/wAmhP84i37TyeC0zwX3mV b0WaE/xx3iKOS7seeh8YNJ1InJhty/z4Wxj/obOoRC755HWjdF15rjwIg9+ej41P76q8 TRpSStxF2DjoM4Gl/Hy16JeKL3S4Ad2VdZboqqb2lv/zPwUhGU0iLS2cnsaqV9IyrBWH fM0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YySeJXW49mLeFah7tXsG8PH0BpgUNpfp5MlDx6xo+4khKGmE0rJ S/55CNKRZqt3mTOsUARwSf9I/6HszsYJYi6BVos= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE8RKIh4O6Njb61tMQpzKm5JKi+72aRIzhwvmnc0bJe/YbbkNFYvoGHJfqr3nV8eesfTnzTZmavsk96VWaw5Mc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:cb0f:0:b0:d7b:8d0c:43ee with SMTP id b15-20020a25cb0f000000b00d7b8d0c43eemr6266974ybg.37.1695323351053; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9d96e8d6-8a40-4353-b7a3-49881742f1a7@auckland.ac.nz> <04809a35-4c06-43b6-bc2e-b69de3214946@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:08:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Inemesit Affia Cc: Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001e86700605e33a19" Subject: Re: [Starlink] APNIC56 last week X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 19:09:11 -0000 --0000000000001e86700605e33a19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the things that amazes me is how do they go about focusing the ISLs? There was a really neat laser MEMs switch chip that google showed off in some recent presentation that I forget the name of and a few interesting patents. On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 12:05=E2=80=AFPM Inemesit Affia via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Not going to go into details but lasers have been identified in photos of > the sats and one of the component suppliers is known. (The scale is novel= , > not the tech, demisabiliy is new though) > > Starlink can't deliver to Antarctica or Northern parts of Alaska, > Ascension Island, Diego Garcia, Easter Island, Vanuatu, Iran without ISL'= s > etc > > North South links seem to work but not East West (if they exist) > > On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:20 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> >> Le 19/09/2023 =C3=A0 06:39, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit : >> > FWIW, I gave a talk about Starlink - insights from a year in - at last >> > week's APNIC56 conference in Kyoto: >> > >> > https://conference.apnic.net/56/program/program/#/day/6/technical-2/ >> >> >> Thanks for the presentation. >> >> I would like to ask what do you mean by "Method #2: "space lasers""and >> "Not all Starlink satellites have >> lasers" on slide 5? >> >> It seems to be saying there is inter-satellite communications. The need >> of that seems to stem from the lack of ground 'teleport' that is >> necessary for DISHY-SAT-Internet communications, so a SAT-to-SAT >> communication is apparently used with lasers. I can agree with the need= . >> >> What standard is used for these lasers? >> >> Is this ISL communicaiton within the starlink constellation a >> supposition or a sure thing? >> >> Other presentations of starlink mentioned on this list dont talk about >> this lasers between sats (dont show lasers on the sats), but kepler >> talks about optical links, and also there is talk about ISOC LEO >> Internet about such 'lasers from space'. >> >> (I must say that I thought previously that there were only 2 or 3 ground >> teleports overall in EU and USA, but I see now there is a teleport in NZ >> too). >> >> (for price comparison: it is said 100USD monthly, but in France right >> now the monthly subscription is at around 40 Euros; this competes very >> advantageously to other satcoms ISPs for rural areas non-covered by 5G; >> the cellular monthly subscriptions are still much more advantageous, >> where there is 5G, of course). >> >> Alex >> >> > >> > Also well worth looking at is Geoff Huston's excellent piece on the >> > foreseeable demise of TCP in favour of QUIC in the same session. One >> > of Geoff's main arguments is that the Internet is becoming local, >> > i.e., most traffic goes between a CDN server and you, and most data is >> > becoming proprietary to the application owner, meaning it suits the >> > Googles and Facebooks of this world very well not to be using TCP for >> > its transport, but rather pull the transport specifics into the >> > application layer where the have full control. >> > >> > Food for thought, especially since LEO networks are a particularly bad >> > place to put local content caches, since the concept of what's "local" >> > in a LEO network changes constantly, at around 20,000 miles an hour or >> > so. Spoke to a Rwandan colleague who installs Starlink there and sees >> > all traffic to anywhere go via the US with RTTs of nearly 2 seconds, >> > even if the Rwandan user is trying to access a Rwandan service. >> > >> > About to hop onto a plane (ZK-NZJ) tonight with free WiFi (Ka band >> > GEO) enroute to Auckland in the hope of getting a better experience >> > than last time when the system seemed to run out of IP addresses on >> > its DHCP. >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.htm= l Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos --0000000000001e86700605e33a19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the things that amazes me is how do they go about f= ocusing the ISLs?

There was a really neat laser MEMs swi= tch chip that google showed off in some recent presentation that I forget t= he name of and a few interesting patents.=C2=A0


=

On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 12:05=E2=80=AFPM Inemesit Affia via Sta= rlink <starlink@lists.= bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Not going to go into details but lasers ha= ve been identified in photos of the sats and one of the component suppliers= is known. (The scale is novel, not the tech, demisabiliy is new though)
Starlink can't deliver to An= tarctica or Northern parts of Alaska, Ascension Island, Diego Garcia, Easte= r Island, Vanuatu, Iran without ISL's etc

North South links seem to work but not East West (if = they exist)

On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:20 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starl= ink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Le 19/09/2023 =C3=A0 06:39, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=
> FWIW, I gave a talk about Starlink - insights from a year in - at last=
> week's APNIC56 conference in Kyoto:
>
> https://conferen= ce.apnic.net/56/program/program/#/day/6/technical-2/


Thanks for the presentation.

I would like to ask what do you mean by "Method #2: "space lasers= ""and
"Not all Starlink satellites have
lasers" on slide 5?

It seems to be saying there is inter-satellite communications. The need of that seems to stem from the lack of ground 'teleport' that is necessary for DISHY-SAT-Internet communications, so a SAT-to-SAT
communication is apparently used with lasers.=C2=A0 I can agree with the ne= ed.

What standard is used for these lasers?

Is this ISL communicaiton within the starlink constellation a
supposition or a sure thing?

Other presentations of starlink mentioned on this list dont talk about
this lasers between sats (dont show=C2=A0 lasers on the sats), but kepler <= br> talks about optical links, and also there is talk about ISOC LEO
Internet about such 'lasers from space'.

(I must say that I thought previously that there were only 2 or 3 ground teleports overall in EU and USA, but I see now there is a teleport in NZ too).

(for price comparison: it is said 100USD monthly, but in France right=C2=A0=
now the monthly subscription is at around 40 Euros;=C2=A0 this competes ver= y
advantageously to other satcoms ISPs for rural areas non-covered by 5G; the cellular monthly subscriptions are still much more advantageous,
where there is 5G, of course).

Alex

>
> Also well worth looking at is Geoff Huston's excellent piece on th= e
> foreseeable demise of TCP in favour of QUIC in the same session. One <= br> > of Geoff's main arguments is that the Internet is becoming local, =
> i.e., most traffic goes between a CDN server and you, and most data is=
> becoming proprietary to the application owner, meaning it suits the > Googles and Facebooks of this world very well not to be using TCP for =
> its transport, but rather pull the transport specifics into the
> application layer where the have full control.
>
> Food for thought, especially since LEO networks are a particularly bad=
> place to put local content caches, since the concept of what's &qu= ot;local"
> in a LEO network changes constantly, at around 20,000 miles an hour or=
> so. Spoke to a Rwandan colleague who installs Starlink there and sees =
> all traffic to anywhere go via the US with RTTs of nearly 2 seconds, <= br> > even if the Rwandan user is trying to access a Rwandan service.
>
> About to hop onto a plane (ZK-NZJ) tonight with free WiFi (Ka band > GEO) enroute to Auckland in the hope of getting a better experience > than last time when the system seemed to run out of IP addresses on > its DHCP.
>
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Dave T=C3=A4ht = CSO, LibreQos
--0000000000001e86700605e33a19--