From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 952163B29D for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 13:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id f11so15114279wrm.6 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:56:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=pptyOhqHVNA6IvAsKa3ZbChuiBhvicMYl/p5SUKu0dk=; b=B+SPuPV9TYsgrZA1WV+p50rrhTXFduLJUibUbgkcP688tgyhd8EJx4EbpWWxhXWdvw qUA3ixJPkAu+1rz2ykaUbVAC6gL8eI/0uHKSBGa4Hjx3doTOW2rU5JsDXBDa3b5vsB/L A6RmiGEnDp9lxvSrVrl5M8FQQjSL4EQLHMXofJfRUviV/4gDzJnm4EAmkUl/k1rE4Yot FlGm2Wd0P/fFsre/6Otc/a+zMLur9spSKXWYNzTVE72vgv4Is/vyHjDL5SDFt7aQhZ47 oKap6frZZe15Rxf54GBZ1kfucsnGhCJYZ54koMqiCo74Z0+HDZsE9An5igQdeo9g/CjJ Kz4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pptyOhqHVNA6IvAsKa3ZbChuiBhvicMYl/p5SUKu0dk=; b=Blf/h/IawnFODv5G0t2waWC2h/L4SJeshxb+yCFepqd83FYWfLKSZ2pxu8o17mTSKG miM5vslEC8g3/vOs2OHF+DRo9s4eWODicKXdoj9LNh+4yxdb51q/IWciaLYf6lHELG56 xBVhBYsl2RDGMPH/jZGhs5Kdmt1q70zkzRP310rCTprzIy3FPys4/joa1O7qrs+izUpa mkq+2KZ6QYEjKC8ctSjWnGFNAeo6Os7Hhpawv2zIteVf9FLyKDvQ6KNtJ3/BDrGw2zSf 7XEFtlQ2SI+n48ExKexlV4A46/C35Lpk7cIPfwxCJQeLvzRSouMLtZUss4x+Dr0EKcDk 0jog== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3SxLc9CJvlxY6JMTqucKSfZCBkIfzZbeRpnfaTr2ZZydW9UBGh 03j8wdNnBMk9jf+sBWzC4Gvof83t17xPCNSHg9E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7DkxHd7ikT3qdAL6XYGwML4jumwj6xCWbNZ0cS4khbTv/j6TpuK0gsc7trsYgyhyPuLtLpFbm1VRCkgYVZR4c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:69b:b0:22e:36aa:5f1 with SMTP id bo27-20020a056000069b00b0022e36aa05f1mr4051845wrb.430.1665943002271; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:56:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <65rp9416-298q-33n8-6p20-6195sqp691oq@ynat.uz> <87v8omo8r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87h706ntwi.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3263acfd-aa5d-4404-805d-0ed966185d5a@Spark> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:56:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Steve Stroh Cc: Mike Puchol , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 17:56:43 -0000 On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:31 AM Steve Stroh via Starlink wrote: > > On the battlefield, high power continuous jamming such as you describe te= nds not to last very long. There are special missiles (HARM - High speed An= tiRadiation Missile) to remedy that situation. They home in on a jamming tr= ansmitter like a beacon. > > One of the stellar attributes about Starlink is that it=E2=80=99s using p= hased array antennas on both user terminals and satellites, proving a =E2= =80=9Ctight beam=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99m speculating, but my guess is that cl= ever programming is configuring the satellite beams to be contoured to igno= re contested areas where jamming is being attempted. An additional speculat= ion is that Starlink is programming both the satellites and user terminals = to continuously authenticate each other=E2=80=99s transmission, allowing th= em to ignore spoofing attempts. You also don't have to locate them at the front. People seem to have forgotten that it's just a networking technology. You could expend even something as ancient as a nanostation M5 radio (which used to have 50km of range), for a directional link to a starlink, or use something in the 900mhz or even 430 mhz spectrum, which have better terrain following properties. You can hook up a nearly unlimited number of natted radios to a given starlink terminal and also have 5g backup and a variety of other tech to make it meshier and more reliable. In the openwrt world we have the babel routing protocol which among many other things, allows you to use up just /64 creatively. These 60ghz radios, although lousy in rain, were pretty good too. https://forum.openwrt.org/t/openwrt-on-the-ubnt-af60-xg-af60-hd/139511 > > Not to mention that the directional nature of the beams allows for a posi= tional reality check. If a terminal is attempted to be used by the enemy an= d the terminal=E2=80=99s internal GPS is spoofed to say it=E2=80=99s well w= ithin Ukraine (good guy territory) rather than its real location outside Uk= raine (bad guy territory), the satellite can discern that a terminal really= isn=E2=80=99t where it=E2=80=99s reporting it is, and that terminal gets (= permanently?) deauthorized. > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 13:45 Mike Puchol via Starlink wrote: >> >> Pumping out RF at fairly high power levels, and pointing an antenna at a= satellite, are both things very easy to do for someone like Russia. To the= n jam 500 MHz of spectrum all at once is not that trivial, and one can get = creative, eg by only attacking the reference subcarriers in OFDM, thus conc= entrating RF power on those, rather than the whole channel. >> >> There are some papers written around jamming LTE by attacking specific r= esources instead of the whole band, making the attack less conspicuous, som= ething similar could be applied against Starlink. By not using brute force,= you also make the attack harder to detect and counter. >> >> My view is that Russia is not worried about being noticed, and just appl= ies brute force. >> >> Best, >> >> Mike >> On Oct 14, 2022 at 20:26 +0200, Juliusz Chroboczek , wrote: >> >> Juliusz, see the Twitter thread I linked to, it explains precisely the >> jamming scenarios they could be facing, and how they are possible. >> >> >> I saw it after I wrote my question, and it does explain a lot. Thanks. >> >> Do you have an idea how difficult it is to actually do in practice? Is i= t >> a simple matter of plugging a second-hand VSAT dish to an old amateur >> radio rig, or do you actually need to be a research lab of the Moscow >> Academy of Sciences to do it? >> >> -- Juliusz >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > -- > Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) > Editor > Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC