From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com (mail-pf1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE2C83B2A4 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 18:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id t2so1223465pfj.10 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 15:49:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=s5NSFZPl5Z6c8VdFpateTX/mkE7WAKzk2s1zBdzulAw=; b=PkQp72rUclcrjTqX9Xcbv0PngDjFFmv1ayJZXpHGa8FE+jPBEb2vWR6mS2dGHSAHWK sICyOv//GJ5/eq0P4MxXBEkBxqVSPBvoy4xZXdU1GUEEVJq7QSpx9aJ86lauajdxSYUe WuRDIVaU6Ec4y83fV+QFz/SoVgGV6xndZo/l+relGI04IXTrAx7J7hUrusFjgcBlsZbb vH5TZsqXvB9kjxfJ7KjZy5H1u1756fahq8guoyuFoeJHKLXxJJeqZc06FU85kXinHo/p 1UJS+e6zBApvSHG+ufzMKhIs0P+yuBkOsKRqm9rJMHyAt0QUr1MRISsx30WdjvTF76ay pVIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=s5NSFZPl5Z6c8VdFpateTX/mkE7WAKzk2s1zBdzulAw=; b=R9NYQbrJ7jfGSFT/kJndcGdBbGfB84NdfhU26IOcJ4q+NfFPcZtT0KTp9KRKfmV8hy aCnfuYO0PtoCfcbd+zNH2SJjQhupWYSvhBTcqHzcRwin/eNrmqtb4gjjcMEGTMnKJ3Gj PC6LuT3puz2LAMLtEws7V5FaMxC52mJjlU8NM0F5UjPD9x4EBvcpwG/pylz0nlV8F4aH 6THBKGXxPiogz6KrACBpLA/3su/Hj+TON5qVl4SEamFppJCvQOL2p6UUYSDZSgBlq7zU PnCcUmtW1cn7SqncUX/nSaj74GTLFS4/ri0/v6Qj+q1Ez7tPLOg+NgFgyJ58beMPY0U3 pLsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531FBKty1ucRlYOuyN+7AUNOHYlnDChCNK9ZG1qbQragG7cAg9B8 YEipKVAQKqphbM2asQrpAiIoQUQeooqSvMke5z9NodgEY1E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCilPPaOZQxwsHv7NkDQrPvrhHNjORwVpliTVM748rlt7qGySxru9vX2vyMqAcWaUK3gG48mqDBOyVUmhTD6A= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:88cf:0:b0:4f7:78b1:2f62 with SMTP id k15-20020aa788cf000000b004f778b12f62mr28119706pff.22.1647384539455; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 15:48:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <08c6ab5c-6a9d-e555-671c-5c59cffcd02d@falco.ca> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 17:48:22 -0500 Message-ID: To: Daniel AJ Sokolov Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] Optimized for Speedtest? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:49:00 -0000 For the historical record, we finally found ways to compensate for the wildly variable bandwidth wifi can have in 2014, and mainlined into linux in 2016. https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/real_results/ Example of ath10k wifi before/after here: https://forum.openwrt.org/t/aql-and-the-ath10k-is-lovely/59002/ starlink, on the uplink anyway, seemed straightforward to fix, in comparison to wifi. On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:39 PM Dave Taht wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 5:09 PM Daniel AJ Sokolov wrote= : > > > > Hello, > > > > From this list I have learned that Starlink is optimized to shine in > > tests with speedtest.net and similar sites, but that transmission rates > > drop quickly after about 15 seconds. > > That is not strictly true. The trend is a low rate for the initial > 15s, then a boost, then variable. It happens that speedtest reports > the *last* result in the typically 20s it runs, > so by that light is starlink is "optimized for speedtest". Much of the > internet is "optimized for speedtest", tons of services basically blow > up classic tcp congestion controls at T+21s. > > Attached are two example flent test runs, a rrul test from one project > member's dishy, and a tcp_nup test from anothers. > > For reference also attached is how a present day WISP 60Ghz radio > functions, one which has FQ and AQM, with consistent bandwidth, and > only ~5ms latency swings. Ideally the latency on starlink would not go > over 10ms their baseline ~40ms latency, under these loads. > > Comparing the later two tests you can see the inversions between > bandwidth and latency that come from the fixed length fifos starlink > uses at any of the roughly 3 > speed settings we currently see. > > PS - most web pages cannot use more than 25MBit in the 3s they typically = take. > > > How do they do that, technically? > > Allocate bandwidth? Unknown. Ever 15s seems silly. Not modifying queue > length and/not using a smarter queuing algo like fq_codel or cake when > they do change the bandwidth allocation is the simple flaw in their > design I keep hoping they'll fix. > > > > > Is that a result of Bufferbloat? > > Yes. The rrul test is often illustrative of the problem on how slowly > the internet operates during an upload clogging up the queue, or vice > versa. Most ISPs do some sort of ack filtering or prioritization to > make uploads interfere less with downloads, or use AQM, fq or a > combination of both. > > > Is that a a specific code in the modem > > to cheat, like some car manufacturers cheated on emissions tests? > > I hope not. No, they do have limited capacity, do have to change sats, > do need to allocate bandwidth sanely. AND buffering. > > > Is > > that something done in the satellites who shift capacity from other > > users to those users who initiate downloads? Is that done on the backha= ul? > > Wish we knew. In my ideal world they would supply a statistic that a > sch_cake could take and vary the rate/buffering based on that on the > home router, or just do it more right > in the dishy and head ends with cake + BQL. > > > > > Thank you > > Daniel > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > -- > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC --=20 I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC