From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49BE33CC36 for ; Tue, 7 May 2024 15:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-41b782405d5so36952875e9.2 for ; Tue, 07 May 2024 12:11:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715109100; x=1715713900; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=xa9C/XOWmynN1SkUEvpCAiffrEJaRtpZ42E4pGkWHk0=; b=cSa7tq1d676ziiSNyj7Aoo0WnlU72jJRsIzmZ/lS2XBcGoAql2ygAFfRfIUN718uAT ue1YEhpRt7b5FBg1yslYIR4FGsPT124HOm+3CZMLpnk/2HRWya5K+XVoEEjpxuU+8/iI N3TP+gNAUlaBBLcLKXdmqwf2tbciqsYCkI16SylXQQvwPRMbtCT/JDoD2z9aIBsAihc9 RCVykAVw1p9vH68ugcXEaz2SqBnFPclJLACA8cMXwUS1wnq8X44OG/qEgshV+l0l4sAw VrGTbL8bWQxCEAGr9ZLrKi3paPP+oohgaskoKp+A9r/Gh17ACpoLGr+sqHD75Z6Q0dtz P6bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715109100; x=1715713900; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xa9C/XOWmynN1SkUEvpCAiffrEJaRtpZ42E4pGkWHk0=; b=OtV/8fMx4PP/tVgOaE2UTCvvcFIVraRyomxcnoW28ZC5URhMC2ExtcOpKAXQIsfdBg ze0G4qQCHaK1u2EEPRLEZG/9W83TVfmpZJETwkUonfTXNyigfnm5oo+3H4Gc2lPBheTe usRXtm9cVQY7vLfjfXpwK9SzWK4ut46Hkapu3pPrFoC4XPCIdwAGZwfGfflYWMfB5Nk0 XAG1quwvLrM/7IvY5nt3S50kwraXSW0dQv+YIajoMi4kX3DdIP2ifXo5Se5LrkMITHKK Kf1cBKNM0fPtaVocNeT1CI7sruRzEjVlx9dukzdXm6ABmnYdMZgcFKlH+rGSH5kUCpM7 6hqg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXKuVno8KCWVEbUlqSfcuNDSFtvSiiTmaifl+Ap5nkimg3V3qRkfxpp5UugGgOO5m6aRdrMLy5lcKPsYKefM5MTfqPZzQjq79ayKEeWdkU= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxGQ6KCy0TR0ORj2Mr6/HbcyDmYkofcyOB78ULvQoC6buXcSv6k 7Z1jK1c2kxpdtWUjWXN6CAIPlqzJp5RVrg0Gb0JOzPivQlKueDcbO0YlF8uYv+ExF+4pXRedZ7I B0xzRytCC4bVfuSpgiHFsMz+TYRY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFfQe3VZ57J/3lgAu/EYLvutuvzIlM7JCYR5ACWExExDQHmk9wsvISZ0FcN51Tc7TAo4Qq/w64dy933gtrT95Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:548e:b0:41b:f577:373 with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-41f7130a1ebmr7573005e9.15.1715109100106; Tue, 07 May 2024 12:11:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@indexexchange.com> <1779481A-0817-4F18-A0D7-A7A5AA0AF9D6@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: <1779481A-0817-4F18-A0D7-A7A5AA0AF9D6@ieee.org> From: Dave Taht Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 12:11:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eugene Y Chang Cc: Dave Collier-Brown , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 19:11:41 -0000 The RFC is very plausible but the methods break down in multiple ways, particularly with wifi. On Tue, May 7, 2024 at 12:10=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote: > > Dave, > Thank you for calling attention to the RFC. I took a quick peek, and I ne= ed to put more time into reading the whole doc. It feels very intuitive. > > What I like is that it is written for incremental adoption. I will focus = on that in my next pass. It opens the door to be incrementally deployed to = pacify an influential squeaky wheel. I like the possibility that a happy sq= ueaky wheel becomes a role model attracting more squeaky wheels until it ma= kes more sense to just adopt broad deployment. If you read my earlier email= s, you know I am in the hunt for an influential squeaky wheel. :P > > Anticipating more discussion in this direction, are there core router ven= dors that have a favorable view of L4S? Are there router implementations j= ust waiting to be turned on? > > Gene > ---------------------------------------------- > Eugene Chang > > > > > On May 7, 2024, at 2:46 AM, Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink wrote: > > It has an RFC at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9330/ > > I read it as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the TC= P "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on it. > > I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more (;-)) > > --dave > > > On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: > > Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that gamers are happy with = it. > > Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish: > https://www.adslzone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vo= dafone > > Regards, > > David F. > > Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 06:50:41 -0400 > From: Rich Brown > To: Eugene Y Chang > Cc: Sebastian Moeller , Colin_Higbie > , Dave Taht via Starlink > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem > Message-ID: <175CC5C3-F70A-49E8-A84D-87E24C04EABD@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > > Hi Gene, > > > On May 6, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Eugene Y Chang wrot= e: > > > > It seems like you signed off on this challenge. Don=E2=80=99t do that. = Help give me the tools to push this to the next level. > > Not at all - I'm definitely signed up for this. But I collected all these= points so we can be clear-eyed about the objections that people cite. > > Bufferbloat definitely exists. And there are straightforward technical so= lutions. And as you say, our challenge is to find a way to build the case f= or broad adoption of these techniques. > > Best regards, > > Rich > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > -- > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including= any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only f= or the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, = copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confide= ntiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please noti= fy the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message = from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not = constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by elect= ronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment = or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this tele= communication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal docu= mentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has be= en signed by an authorized signatory. > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos