From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8091B3B2A4 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 18:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id v130-20020a1cac88000000b003bcde03bd44so6652684wme.5 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:29:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=2wCgsOg8coFlUr2EEghoMb3xuFHjd8jwJwT3Q6pPITE=; b=KxkyxOSETp0pe/PUvay/+Tp1nc2d5CvyFhzUMnLNCt6ZVTbxntLooFt2vSAD8zwXHx yxOmgVdIXX8Jk940cp/K7w977ym3IOHP9dXDYu28KC7n9pVlwCdBkflRysfGbWDU/0aT g6FQDJ6ACt9FWVUJpjFIo54zmduPNvz0R2zPCSHQ/9b+2MEOdgyJrnu7qMfMjLoKv5Jp UnjQ7Ar3QWZ51vAPlm3dhTigtva+ulKyo+SifqbEtwmxJWcvN7gMoHPsfoZ7hoSbp/xk Q+kb+NVAGnnlz6jaTzNYFtHnspWu7LseMCVtKaakUEuAaEXCGqd3hC1nfFJpGjSBTyTp ZUYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2wCgsOg8coFlUr2EEghoMb3xuFHjd8jwJwT3Q6pPITE=; b=ItLQvJUZ73+F/TjyaPePmimdkBYymPeKyc9cT8dEnxmPS4E/t01DFtX9bcJkGx9Jbj rzHQLJ3Gk7yBJZrTs+rRaDDIRQbEmkxLT9cK13gDZEhq6t1+PkD8pnINsakNSwqG9I9l QT33DwE9uVm78I3dfr4a16Iuo5DD547vwVL0CnQXZ+DaSwKDTqqFZ0wtmI2nOn/XNeCO cLjGhcWaOAjEpcUT4O7PD02g3Po/05OGVSBxeyWhNQUp4PhAU1lfgm1SvmXTtqx9BEVC 4/WHRPqScql3tGk6gWfFqyWw+lYHwB/MnnUdTxpEstcE9jOqnz1tPEJ5PSionjdmqFt+ qhjg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf125p4+/r63DmC6ioXhZvf3XLf3LP/wyrpY21y/CeufXzVlcRGX gg9xjkizxf1UZc7l/AYmYP3bTDWIP1ZaWRk4ZrtK4HIUF64= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7TLjOMj0IPdDUjcZXRKMMXmrKKdq3h+Sreej7ym0RUEv70zwCt6hAjqxVQK6mq8u/bap2uwypKp7wqIk2iff0= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c3c4:0:b0:3c4:785a:36d7 with SMTP id t4-20020a7bc3c4000000b003c4785a36d7mr12096366wmj.138.1665786571144; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:29:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <38522124-6d3b-4ac8-bb20-92bfa35dc9fe@Spark> <87tu46o8e3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3ea89257-d5f8-4fa9-a90a-c73d49d2a9e2@Spark> <87r0zao0f0.wl-jch@irif.fr> <398208s8-6080-r8q7-s6rs-q9np11428n3o@ynat.uz> <4rn1o59p-36nq-87q9-3n78-828r0qppp221@ynat.uz> <17p02r7n-931q-np8o-n4r5-554psr2n8o79@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <17p02r7n-931q-np8o-n4r5-554psr2n8o79@ynat.uz> From: Dave Taht Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 15:29:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Starlink list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 22:29:32 -0000 On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 1:07 PM David Lang via Starlink wrote: > > Also, they didn't say that SpaceX was cutting service or stopping funding= it, > they just said that they aren't going to continue to provide the service = for > free indefinantly and are not going to keep providing lots of dishes for = free > (apparently there are around 500/month being destroyed due to combat) Meanwhile, oleg repairs shot up or broken terminals with what spare parts he can scrounge. https://twitter.com/olegkutkov > David Lang > > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, David Lang wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) > > From: David Lang > > To: Larry Press > > Cc: Kurtis Heimerl , David Lang , > > Starlink list > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian a= rmy? > > > > some interesting tidbits in that article > > > > 1. 25k dishes rather than the 15k I had heard befor > > 2. they are providing full business rates rather than consumer rates > > 2a. it's interesting that they can do this with the consumer dishes, al= though > > a lot of what I saw shipped were the gen1 (round) dishes, which may be = better > > than the gen 2 consumer dishes. > > > > yes, the companies who manufacture the weapons have been paid in full. > > > > I think it's worth pointing out that Starlink was never intended to be = the > > entire communications infrastructure for a country. I think it would be= a > > very interesting thing to investigate what the actual density of users = and > > data usage is (there is a graph posted, but I haven't tried to get a go= od > > enough copy of it to see the units). It could confirm/refute the "starl= ink > > can't scale" argument > > > > David Lang > > > > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Larry Press wrote: > > > >> SpaceX has given a more detailed statement of expenses to the Pentagon= : > >> https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/13/politics/elon-musk-spacex-starlink-ukra= ine/index.html > >> > >> They have been "paid" in favorable publicity and have tested/refined t= hings > >> like mobile connectivity. > >> > >> Aren't the companies that supply weapons, ammunition, etc. paid? > >> > >> Larry > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Starlink on behalf of D= avid > >> Lang via Starlink > >> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 10:28 AM > >> To: Kurtis Heimerl > >> Cc: Starlink list > >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian = army? > >> > >> Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m tota= l > >> figure > >> is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the figure that= they > >> sent > >> (separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercial side), th= at > >> works > >> out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high. > >> > >> now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukraine = could > >> be > >> driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming. But in his = tweet > >> he > >> also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as "Ukraine > >> related" > >> costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work sho= uld > >> be > >> either) > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote: > >> > >>> This thread > >>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/dim0kq/status/158082= 7171903635456__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02d= lWYYFi4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUURE6WtPnA$ > >>> ) > >>> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at > >>> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant > >>> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but > >>> not on the basic model. > >>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not even setting= the > >>>>> expectation that it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cfreemium=E2=80=9D model, i= t=E2=80=99s very hard to get out of > >>>>> it. If > >>>>> you then claim your costs are way higher than what analysis work ou= t, > >>>>> eyebrows > >>>>> raise way above the hairline. > >>>> > >>>> Uh. Hmm. > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/s= tarlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi= 4zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Starlink mailing list > >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/st= arlink__;!!P7nkOOY!reUDfoQpkbJ6YAQ6h436UHdL9D0lnxDeqlc29JPUsrl8V_02dlWYYFi4= zfQ-CCRLKetEGxza7FjOyJDcUUSVCxIH-w$ > >_______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC