From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 513DA3B29D for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 14:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id c7-20020a05600c0ac700b003c6cad86f38so10772668wmr.2 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:01:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=+cjTPDpasOOB78BXwLfOuklw3wdK/csZ5/yPslzeAzc=; b=cPoGsNCV5KB0CrTbC55CZrjxkICs5VVgH1CK6PVDxw+iNP9D9j/nNuATfgTZA/O+d4 ysaW2eVIORbIOoFbBmrDEtwM7m/A+KNIWZ8UXgnJkdZW5VXDnOQZVmmA5bO04ziODoJw DDitDEUvO2dwDH0pTVHnts271eVhrulSrgETw3GnT6+nmryokEcn5KtaDFHqbUi44PPb 1rgueVH4aWl3+OzAm8+3RMBvetyQIbJjOxADlRp1FZksin4zbR9kWixmP1QQ24asXtXZ ZSH40swkUAs1X6KQc2z/2CmenPB+7r5hAbiDfHJxxrVIsbF5ONiTwCJITYkD+eJQ/a+2 sF6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+cjTPDpasOOB78BXwLfOuklw3wdK/csZ5/yPslzeAzc=; b=LXrLysONgH9yMjVBBR6PeYHHeU2E/q1xxyd4UeERlXfMk/vV1lTH6tR60zQFutddDX VGiV8019jVrka0bDW2IKVR4zI5IVfO8jdEUvO/tRIgofUDfF5uX4D8uVOojL6Rl3xzm/ i2jTppgM08MGbrx5gYCOBUv1vHwwMgvMuwt13kob5MU+Te30VhYZrEaEeCxIdTUIN2fd CCCzlEGuwnluNvbX28fbx+Tw1OmG5Wl7fiWIk27bDr0IcZA24z92TVd2z72QWletf86b FJ8o1FSiXmaTZDwUY8jEL8KjcgF2EnjOVOmXTrz5mhAp/BYJM9KvBurHtOHqCXJYmLGY v7kg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0SufLCPl7+z8CPOryMKdKPxsJwi/eetrua87X3wN8f9Twe9K1V BHfTMnT0UiBDd2uQ1U7i7MpLFEVgUtPKgA6ShzDumTEI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4XSJjhvDXVJ1p8oqzUDFlEXjCzD/FXxltH24RU5h3YSaZ4uQP5uOIfvr0jC2v3SsmX4SEBf1Rsdon1bMh7Ico= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c3c4:0:b0:3c4:785a:36d7 with SMTP id t4-20020a7bc3c4000000b003c4785a36d7mr17153190wmj.138.1665943311049; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:01:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <38522124-6d3b-4ac8-bb20-92bfa35dc9fe@Spark> <87tu46o8e3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3ea89257-d5f8-4fa9-a90a-c73d49d2a9e2@Spark> <87r0zao0f0.wl-jch@irif.fr> <398208s8-6080-r8q7-s6rs-q9np11428n3o@ynat.uz> <12bfd01d8e001$03cf0e40$0b6d2ac0$@evslin.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:01:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nathan Owens Cc: Steve Stroh , Starlink list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 18:01:52 -0000 On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM Nathan Owens via Starlink wrote: > > Elon posted a graph, it showed a peak of 7000GB per unit time, the only o= ne that makes sense to me is per hour, which is 15Gbps peak -- not a huge a= mount. You really don't need much data for C&C traffic. You do need a fairly reliable uplink, but the observed jitter on an otherwise idle link was in the few ms range. GPSD has a udp output mode, too. (btw, to my knowledge, starlink has not enabled any network interfaces to the outside to their internal on-dish gps chip, which when I was whinging about it, would provide perfect time to downstream clients, either natively or via ntp) It's one very short message, per second. > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:50 AM Steve Stroh via Starlink wrote: >> >> I=E2=80=99m speculating, but given that Starlink is THE communications i= nfrastructure for much of Ukraine, then the scaling of the ground stations = to provide that level of service must be a significant expense. To provide = that much bandwidth would require deploying a lot of ground stations, each = with expensive hardware, power infrastructure (including backup), fiber bac= khaul, skilled labor, and no small amount of fiber bandwidth that SpaceX ha= s to pay SOMEONE to provide. >> >> Not to mention that anything SpaceX deploys to support Ukraine is a reso= urce that it could have used for speeding up revenue generation in lucrativ= e markets like the US. >> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 12:41 David Lang via Starlink wrote: >>> >>> If spacex is providing the high-end/business grade service to all termi= nals >>> that they normally charge $4500/month for, reimbursement should be base= d on >>> that. >>> >>> Base it on the normal service pricing, not on cost-plus (if it were bas= ed on >>> cost-plus it would be an utter windfall for SpaceX as they are still in= the >>> stage of building the service, and so there is a much higher spend rate= to >>> expand the service at this point than the ongoing maintinance of it) >>> >>> while the satellites do support that area, they also support the rest o= f the >>> service, and if they weren't supporting Ukraine, there wouldn't be any = fewer >>> satellites launched. >>> >>> I've seen too many games played with 'fully loaded costs' (sometimes ba= ckfiring >>> on the people tinkering with the numbers), and so it's something I watc= h out >>> for. >>> >>> lies, damn lies, and statistics, 'fully loaded costs' tend to be heavy = on >>> statistics ;-) >>> >>> David Lang >>> >>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, tom@evslin.com wrote: >>> >>> > Putting aside the timing of Elon's complaint about cost right after t= he spat over his Ukrainian "peace plan", It is certainly reasonable for Sta= rlink to get paid like other weapon suppliers who didn't give out free samp= les to prove their usefulness, Given that they should be reimbursed based o= n loaded cost plus profit like anyone else. I'm sure the other suppliers al= locate their overhead costs when pricing weapon systems. They'd be out of b= usiness otherwise. The satellites are part of Starlink's fixed overhead so = a portion of their costs should be allocated to service provided in Ukraine= . >>> > >>> > All that being said, it would be terrible if Ukraine got less than th= e best support that can be provided. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Starlink On Behalf Of = David Lang via Starlink >>> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:28 PM >>> > To: Kurtis Heimerl >>> > Cc: Starlink list >>> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian= army? >>> > >>> > Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m tot= al figure is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the figure= that they sent (separate from whatever has been purchased on the commercia= l side), that works out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high. >>> > >>> > now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside Ukraine= could be driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming. But in= his tweet he also cites satellite costs, which should not be allocated as = "Ukraine related" >>> > costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work sh= ould be >>> > either) >>> > >>> > David Lang >>> > >>> > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote: >>> > >>> >> This thread (https://twitter.com/dim0kq/status/1580827171903635456) >>> >> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at >>> >> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant >>> >> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but >>> >> not on the basic model. >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink >>> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not even settin= g >>> >>>> the expectation that it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cfreemium=E2=80=9D mod= el, it=E2=80=99s very hard to get >>> >>>> out of it. If you then claim your costs are way higher than what >>> >>>> analysis work out, eyebrows raise way above the hairline. >>> >>> >>> >>> Uh. Hmm. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Starlink mailing list >>> >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Starlink mailing list >>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> -- >> Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) >> Editor >> Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-69813666656= 07352320-FXtz Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC