From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 259483B2A4 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 21:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id w15so13669166ilv.5 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 18:26:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gRgLTTg6EoubPnx7JoDKo1CTs1d1og66lWrIBB5uvjA=; b=UG9c8RFTTVQgvzfe9CBEW7YQ4041Ezxa2/VgwS//6kiTBpY/X8ijee0+25YplMyrDq moYw7kMlNnlHJ0TymMKSDfVX5HAPq6zBydgWiTkx4ECTLei9QdTITGVr/Kurbs2V0cgZ 87oYeKRh0xVr8t0mHCuaoQ0uBVA48Wh7lzakFSaILpEFqZCs180G67l5UpNLYezMx4sE OGTKZ934lO9iCgqIx9YQDW+cMJtmJ2h0Jgks82NKInqu0sT+YHpj2qZdfLDNLEq5th7S p2O+UZY/3dIMSL1mIhwjRsdUactaG6+eCGHML81GEL7afF5haaGn8DS7U8LCNyPHTgK2 MXbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gRgLTTg6EoubPnx7JoDKo1CTs1d1og66lWrIBB5uvjA=; b=NVKgacSzeXjq8IYRO5YcCtsw8+tf1U0Ka9Xj3CVtywSELBlrEeqBho41P+16esXZg8 NfHWkYQ39u+S09SLY41JdL8Jz+SyMyTlClzwo8FwxdJ/IG6Rrl1mgE13Dacv0O9Lbfzt r+Za9z/7vin9RRF/QlmCZF7vf4Js7hjJZneoLJ4eaXaQmEt/WDTJ6x4ndV274AuMLREj R68xKpy+wG1qvHMpt9220ftdPBACtH+tMiBCXtFcyo4jdPSRDUMrQ/V27GofkU+pgrEO 4vXxrdpL+Jn9BRSGjpUOISp7uq/2BbK9rtLYwcJoVj4Cww2NGcKBY5xbNGC8WHyBP8r2 CV3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533lEAMJsiHVmZfyfvY6AGAGLi2mf00Z9K2FiUf2vfYI0knHUc2o ZG2mvL1PRaGZ1/4mc93m4FdudmUHF45aXFmJXgwyXyJuG2I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1jYYMWZ3PFnO/pzkg3byvF7GXj0RNfX2KuzR7iFiqJYAtIZtm4ZqRpzKh4M2Q6DcKlgcXCjX9Kn4MjiHR8ik= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c26d:: with SMTP id h13mr6627966ild.221.1635211607242; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 18:26:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dave Taht Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 18:26:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Cc: Mark Handley Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Starlink] thinking about the laser links again X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 01:26:48 -0000 I haven't really been focused on the starlink stuff for many months, although I do periodically run a test to see if they've fixed their bufferbloat anywhere. (nope). The networkQuality test from apple is now shipping in OSX!! and I can think about something else. I'd written this, I guess, over 2 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/brn6gg/will_starlink_have_buffer= bloat/ and had had a nice dialog with mark handley (who has since stopped writing anything about starlink so I kind of assume he went under NDA) At the time I first started thinking about this I had had a few objections to his simulations. One was that he made the assumption in his earliest simulations that the sats would be routing "up there" rather than down here. The first sats routed simply to the next hop or a failover hop and that is easy to think about (and the congestion problems soluble with the tools already developed by the bufferbloat project). His later sims did that, but neither set seemed to address congestion control issues. Now that the first laser sats are launching, thinking about how that would work, in the dearth of other information, is hard. One number I don't have is what the actual capacity is for each laser link (anyone?), and for how long. I'd also thought at the time I'd written the above that the value of going new york to tokyo primarily by satellite was a license to print money. The value of that path seemed to be in the millions/minute range - so I had generally assumed that usage of it would be governed by a virtual circuit setup, used internally, or by major governments, or investment houses. It made the most sense to me to terminate most links back to the ground as quickly as possible, otherwise. But in thinking about 33,000 sats... rather than the paltry (cough) few they've presently flown, as a giant LAG switch that can cross oceans, I can certainly see the concept being used for more general purpose traffic especially to the islands of the world. That gets me to my second question: of the field of view of the sat links? And then my humdinger question based on their launch schedule and satellite distribution... how long before they can get a first transit from new york (or london) to tokyo, borne entirely on the sat laser links themselves? It needn't be direct, just taking advantage of the known satellite laser links to get that far. --=20 Fixing Starlink's Latencies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dc9gLo6Xrwgw Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC