From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yw1-x112e.google.com (mail-yw1-x112e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00ADC3CB37; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 13:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-yw1-x112e.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5a7af52ee31so54816777b3.2; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 10:19:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699899563; x=1700504363; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=H86g12QHyEh4O3L9fPuIifVWTYFdooDkXFqQzQASwnI=; b=Wnea4Vwzxgp/PVtI5CPWQW+9PbAQzWPSoy1fQf0FqQ5px/SLMk04Fk5N//nvbmUTPr p+mzTOV86pRtUm76ntMSHFl274AIBZKqvPxHkMPXxBQ/4LivoVx+GSjNVeZgkJvOskZ3 XIKCuwyAPl6viQFG6+kzEvevJjZf8pVaXjND2iBuYwwBGJgIh/6YRKMC2b52yOyAa+jl MBkVxpWuvubsVn/N0sI0Blvw5xKl8ZPIjUEQr2i6BfmV/epTqNGrSbWUZhXeUSBeJIJt dlm1EZHewUCWcdwEc/NfMt9PCW+5Yxj+3WL9LmjrBfFE0IvbEnL4MQDkQ9LPDULXzB3e kLtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699899563; x=1700504363; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=H86g12QHyEh4O3L9fPuIifVWTYFdooDkXFqQzQASwnI=; b=DsJYJ+f0mSSYW3Xw4OzdC41LtkzWxem+Jn9s/Ee8gx2FQX+JNc99YRBTwc3KuvtZSl zYemypoEy7wamxhPtDCd9jJHObpJCQo1nZpTFdXIL8FhuyI1bcd0YpIY+tHt4N6uFkC1 0bnv+TKM/kj0S35Xqz2AqMgvT9MUGgJQ0yALMCyeE7dBtCQdntbSjpOa2LJiAcdsAaRK qcFl0P7fs07eZIk9u8u01omGvnhtvuGFmRjv5RXCGwIPATwmbRXJPYwOGiHjwR+9zDgF Bwpnf0DyTiOtR19BDgPdPyRHxyOWFf4/O290D1N/AWy5pdM0kvq4f2XK1kn/labgUGsx iQaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzaJyemfDJaJtptl6Qt+IPS2etbEG7FmR0agW+cBrQi5yYaHA8A E6pa/vAU2W4LjzI7JA9U5cjMOLRR2s2btw8VLoBGDerfzsI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGU4fTFe5E3REwjaTwwtZcRxPqgvZDzwrTAfVPxqt/B9QuAaS5Cn6Zm3aUH4oG5XuLZxcTuGAaN+zWPYNsYuFs= X-Received: by 2002:a81:5342:0:b0:5b3:f5f8:c5bf with SMTP id h63-20020a815342000000b005b3f5f8c5bfmr6272064ywb.9.1699899562756; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 10:19:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 11:19:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Network_Neutrality_is_back=21_Let=C2=B4s_make_the_technical_asp?= =?UTF-8?Q?ects_heard_this_time=21?= , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000979062060a0cb547" Subject: Re: [Starlink] the real state of "smart agriculture"? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 18:20:00 -0000 --000000000000979062060a0cb547 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a business that does various sensing including AG market as well as bar/restaurant and produce. We use LoRaWAN because all other techs were far too costly and/or low performing. I'll comment in-line. On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 5:44=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht wro= te: > (I am hoping others on this list with real-world AG experience can > chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions and pain > points[2]) > > I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any major > component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA, (where > starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to give it a > good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to power, and > too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other > centralized requirements that make organic evolution and solid support > in remote environments dicy and expensive. > 5G is FAR too costly for this. The AG market and many markets that could benefit from sensors are far to price conscious. 5G as well as catm and nb-iot are great if you have a very small number of highly mobile sensors, but if you need a high number of sensors it's far far far too costly. And it's very difficult to run private networks so it's essentially stuck in the hands of major carriers. Just look at the catm/nb-iot market, it's barely alive. lorawan sensors can be extremely cheap, just a few dollars, and run for months to years on a battery. I've placed lorawan asset trackers in packages and tracked them across country accurately and cheaply. A $15 sensor's chirps can be extrapolated into location tracking as well as identification of impact and temps from the sensor. We currently track a bait (as in fishing bait) company's cartons in a few hundred mile radius as well as their coolers and freezers. We get temps, humidity, and pressure and can extract door opens from the pressure and a trigger we have built on the sensors (sharp increase is a door close, sharp decrease is a door open). We triangulate location from gateway locations and wifi beacons much like you get reasonably accurate locations on your PC w/o GPS using semtek's location services. I have a small number of catm devices, including catm on my victron global relays and a few GPS sensors which work great, but I only use them because I need long distance roaming. > > I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient subsidies, > we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of every > suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the cloud, > rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of gps and > drones are being shown every day, along with satellite weather and > other forms of satellite analysis. [1] > > But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are easily > constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5 dollars or > less: > > https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontroller-NodeMCU-32S-ESP= -WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=3Dasc_df_B086MJGFVV/ > > And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4 miles), at > low complexity and power also. > LoRa isn't actually meshy, you can run some simblance of a mesh on top of LoRa radios but this is really not necessary. We have lorawan GPS sensors that have pinged at 110km away in clear line of site. We have refrigerator lorawan sensors that have been read 2km away in a city at other client's locations. Lorawan has very cheap gateways that can easily be installed at client locations for under $100 that can forward to a number of 'national' services (aws iot, helium, the things network) as well as your own lora stack such as chirpstack. > > then there are things like amazon sidewalk: > https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=3DUTF8&node=3D21328123011 Sidewalk is a hybrid not a wireless tech per se, but includes lora (not lorawan) and is very well distributed. I have a few test kits for this and have been very very impressed by coverage. > > And airtags. > airtags suck. Slow chirpers, only really useful for tracking with apple's kit. I wouldn't consider this a player in the sensor market. > > [1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we produce has > recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of nutritious > minerals over the past 100 years. Please see: > > https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831 > > How smart is that? > monocrops I would assume. Plus longer transit times, earlier harvests and 'truck ripening'. I would imagine flash freezing of produce as well. > > [2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the water > hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of drought > led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last year. > Are you coming for my Almond milk?!?! > > You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear aimed at > "the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half moon bay. > That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent, the workers > at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except crab and > squid. > > How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster, too. I > vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally.... > > I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is one thing, > sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it strategically, > another. > There are real dangers in collecting and publishing data unfortunately. I have a few sort of a creepy anecdotes from beta testing sensors at a pizza place. This is based around 1, 5, 10, 15 minute sensor readings from dragion temp, humidity, and pressure sensors with triggors on rapid changes to any reading. We were able to predict freezure failure 3 weeks in advance on 15 minute reads by analysing the condensor pump runtimes. We were able to identify which freezers were the oldest or last refurbished a couple of ways. The condensor cycle times compared to the decrease in temps show how long it takes to cool the box which accurately described the age of the unit, and the time it took the temp to rise accurately determined the state of the door seals. between the two we could identify which coolers were new, which were refurbished, and which were old and needed a refurb. This was over a number of stores in the chain. that's not so creepy, but it's data extracted from 15 minute intervals that didn't directly measure the condesor or doors. However, where it gets a bit more creepy is that we were able to extract when workers went on break. accurately. No door opens, no temp drops, no changes in pressure meant no workers working, they were out back smoking. We could identify the smoke breaks PERFECTLY. That means low pressence in the front of the store and a back door propped open. We could also identify the food delivery by changes in the walk-in cooler pressure, and rise in temps, and very slow drop in temps when freezer was running. That means a back door propped open. We could identify if someone was sitting in the office, or if there were more that 1 person in the office. pressure, temp, and humidity all altered from people being in the room and by a predictable amount. This seems pretty begning data and private data that the public wouldnt see, but that we could extrapolate this very accurately from sensors in the walk-in and reach in coolers should give a little pause about massive sensor networks and publicly accessible data. You don't know what you might expose and what security conserns might pop out from data 'innocently' collected. Big data is very dangerous. --000000000000979062060a0cb547 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a business that does various sensing including= AG market as well as bar/restaurant and produce.=C2=A0 We use LoRaWAN beca= use all other techs were far too costly and/or low performing.=C2=A0 I'= ll comment in-line.

On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 5:44=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
=
(I am hoping others= on this list with real-world AG experience can
chime in? I enjoy realworld stories about present solutions and pain
points[2])

I have often been dubious of the 5g hope to dominate any major
component of a smart ag architecture except perhaps FWA, (where
starlink is poised and people also want to run fiber) to give it a
good run for the money- 5g chips are too big, too hard to power, and
too complex, and come with a monthly billing model and other
centralized requirements that make organic evolution and solid support
in remote environments dicy and expensive.

5G is F= AR too costly for this.=C2=A0 The AG market and many markets that could ben= efit from sensors are far to price conscious.=C2=A0 5G as well as catm and = nb-iot are great if you have a very small number of highly mobile sensors, = but if you need a high number of sensors it's far far far too costly.= =C2=A0 And it's very difficult to run private networks so it's esse= ntially stuck in the hands of major carriers.=C2=A0 Just look at the catm/n= b-iot market, it's barely alive.=C2=A0

lorawan sensors can be ex= tremely cheap, just a few dollars, and run for months to years on a battery= .=C2=A0 I've placed lorawan asset trackers in packages and tracked them= across country accurately and cheaply.=C2=A0 A $15 sensor's chirps can= be extrapolated into location tracking as well as identification of impact= and temps from the sensor.=C2=A0 We currently track a bait (as in fishing = bait) company's cartons in a few hundred mile radius as well as their c= oolers and freezers.=C2=A0 We get temps, humidity, and pressure and can ext= ract door opens from the pressure and a trigger we have built on the sensor= s (sharp increase is a door close, sharp decrease is a door open).=C2=A0 We= triangulate location from gateway locations and wifi beacons much like you= get reasonably accurate locations on your PC w/o GPS using semtek's lo= cation services.=C2=A0

I have a small number of catm devices, includ= ing catm on my victron global relays and a few GPS sensors which work great= , but I only use them because I need long distance roaming.

=C2=A0

I freely concede that I may be wrong, that with sufficient subsidies,
we will end up hanging the equivalent of a cellphone off of every
suitably large piece of gear and ship all the data up to the cloud,
rather than pre-process locally. Certainly the benefits of gps and
drones are being shown every day, along with satellite weather and
other forms of satellite analysis. [1]

But the 5g sensor market? No. Nowadays smart sensors are easily
constructed out of wifi devices such as these which cost 5 dollars or
less:

https://www.amazon.com/DORHEA-Development-Microcontrol= ler-NodeMCU-32S-ESP-WROOM-32/dp/B086MJGFVV/ref=3Dasc_df_B086MJGFVV/

And the more meshy LoRA stuff now has much better range (4 miles), at
low complexity and power also.

LoRa isn't actu= ally meshy, you can run some simblance of a mesh on top of LoRa radios but = this is really not necessary.=C2=A0 We have lorawan GPS sensors that have p= inged at 110km away in clear line of site.=C2=A0 We have refrigerator loraw= an sensors that have been read 2km away in a city at other client's loc= ations.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Lorawan has very cheap gateways that can easily be inst= alled at client locations for under $100 that can forward to a number of &#= 39;national' services (aws iot, helium, the things network) as well as = your own lora stack such as chirpstack.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

then there are things like amazon sidewalk:
https://www.amazon.com/Amaz= on-Sidewalk/b?ie=3DUTF8&node=3D21328123011
Sidewal= k is a hybrid not a wireless tech per se, but includes lora (not lorawan) a= nd is very well distributed.=C2=A0 I have a few test kits for this and have= been very very impressed by coverage.=C2=A0



And airtags.
airtags suck.=C2=A0 Slow chirpers, only r= eally useful for tracking with apple's kit.=C2=A0 I wouldn't consid= er this a player in the sensor market.
=C2=A0

[1] On the other hand rigorous analysis of the food we produce has
recently discovered a marked decline in the percentage of nutritious
minerals over the past 100 years. Please see:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/fu= ll/10.1080/09637486.2021.1981831

How smart is that?
monocrops I would assume.=C2=A0 Plu= s longer transit times, earlier harvests and 'truck ripening'.=C2= =A0 I would imagine flash freezing of produce as well.=C2=A0=C2=A0

[2] Massive subsidy and diversion of river resources to the water
hungry california almond industry during the last 7 years of drought
led to the cancellation of the salmon fishing season last year.
Are you coming for my Almond milk?!?!
=C2=A0

You should hear some of the invective that I used to hear aimed at
"the f-ing vegetarians" along the docks I frequent in half moon b= ay.
That I used to hear, anyway, The docks are eerily silent, the workers
at other jobs, the boats not going out for anything except crab and
squid.

How smart is that? The California water table is a disaster, too. I
vastly prefer salmon to almonds personally....

I guess a meta point is easily gathering tactical data is one thing,
sharing it sanely another, deciding on how to use it strategically,
another.

There are real dangers in coll= ecting and publishing data unfortunately.=C2=A0 I have a few sort of a cree= py anecdotes from beta testing sensors at a pizza place.=C2=A0 This is base= d around 1, 5, 10, 15 minute sensor readings from dragion temp, humidity, a= nd pressure sensors with triggors on rapid changes to any reading.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

We were able to predict freezure failure 3 weeks in advance on 1= 5 minute reads by analysing the condensor pump runtimes.=C2=A0=C2=A0
We = were able to identify which freezers were the oldest or last refurbished a = couple of ways.=C2=A0 The condensor cycle times compared to the decrease in= temps show how long it takes to cool the box which accurately described th= e age of the unit, and the time it took the temp to rise accurately determi= ned the state of the door seals.=C2=A0 between the two we could identify wh= ich coolers were new, which were refurbished, and which were old and needed= a refurb.=C2=A0 This was over a number of stores in the chain.
that'= ;s not so creepy, but it's data extracted from 15 minute intervals that= didn't directly measure the condesor or doors.

However, where i= t gets a bit more creepy is that we were able to extract when workers went = on break.=C2=A0 accurately.=C2=A0 =C2=A0No door opens, no temp drops, no ch= anges in pressure meant no workers working, they were out back smoking.=C2= =A0 We could identify the smoke breaks PERFECTLY.=C2=A0 That means low pres= sence in the front of the store and a back door propped open.

We cou= ld also identify the food delivery by changes in the walk-in cooler pressur= e, and rise in temps, and very slow drop in temps when freezer was running.= =C2=A0 That means a back door propped open.

We could identify if som= eone was sitting in the office, or if there were more that 1 person in the = office.=C2=A0 pressure, temp, and humidity all altered from people being in= the room and by a predictable amount.


This seems pretty begning= data and private data that the public wouldnt see, but that we could extra= polate this very accurately from sensors in the walk-in and reach in cooler= s should give a little pause about massive sensor networks and publicly acc= essible data.=C2=A0 You don't know what you might expose and what secur= ity conserns might pop out from data 'innocently' collected.=C2=A0 = Big data is very dangerous.
--000000000000979062060a0cb547--